Red Dot optics on handguns

[brmiller]

To those with experience shooting red dot sights on handguns, how do you think the advantages and disadvantages compare?

I put a Holosun on my Glock this weekend and shot for the first time. I am a little more accurate at 50 and 75 feet than with iron sights, but finding the red dot on a handgun takes some getting used to.

I started shooting red dots on my USPSA open class pistols when they first started showing up (80s). Yes, they do take some getting used to, but it was proven time and time again that when you have to engage multiple targets, possibly while moving, the RDS pistols are faster and more accurate (in the right hands). If you're just standing/sitting and plunking at one target the difference is less noticeable unless you have vision issues with iron sights.

I have two 1911s, a 2011, and a G22 and all have RDS and they work very well.

 

[SG1]

I recently changed my EDC to a Sig P365x with a Holosun 507k. I shot it really well with the iron sights.
It does take getting used to but after 600 or so rounds, I was comfortable with it. My eyes are getting old and the MRD is much easier to pick up. I watched several videos on finding the dot on presentation and with some practice, it is not an issue now.

 

[herrwalther]

I have a Holosun 507c on my Walther Q4. Been on there for 2 years now and a big fan of it. I just got a PSA Dagger with an optic cut as well so I will be shopping for another optic for that pretty soon.

 

[Tinman357]

I have a RDS on mine. There is a learning curve, there was on irons too. It doesn't take long. Better in every way that is important, to me. Way faster and a definate step up in accuracy.

Like most, I’ve been shooting iron sights all my life. I even competed some. I'm no Jerry Miculek or Rob Leatham, but I'm head and shoulders above the people I see at the ranges I go to. Every time I go at least 1 person will ask me for help in learning how to shoot. Yes, I always help where I can. I've met some good people and made good friends that way.

Learn iron sights, learn them well. If you want a RDS then get one and learn it, well.

IMHO RDS is the future in the shooting sports. More accurate, faster, and more instinctive than irons.

They are getting better and less expensive. Before making a firm descision, try one. Chances are that you know someone that has one you can use for a bit.

I've let a lot (hundreds) on new and novice shooters try mine at the range. With a little instruction and a mag or two, not only are they on target, they're getting pretty respectable groups. Even a few men that have my respect as experianced and "seasoned" shooters have switched to RDS after shooting mine.

Over the last few years I've gotten quite a few disparaging comments, some were antagonisticly rude from some of the older regulars there. Now, most of them have RDS as well.

For me, RDS have been an intresting journey. Far more than I can post here. But, all I can say is give it an honest try if you are intrested in them.

Remember, getting old ain't for sissies. Adapt or fall behind the curve. Presbyopia and cateracts are a fact. Iron sights are great, that's a fact too. But if you can't see them, or they get hairy as you age, a RDS or even a laser just might keep you on the ball. It did for me.

 

[Ks5shooter]

For competition,putting together a 41 as we speak......

 

[Ks5shooter]

My wife however carries her 43 all the time on the farm........

 

[WYO]

but finding the red dot on a handgun takes some getting used to.

This is the only downside of transitioning to red dots. Convincing your brain that the dot is not the front sight takes some time. Focusing on the target instead of the front sight takes some time
.

Three comments. First, finding the dot can be learned without firing a round of live ammo. Just dry fire with an empty gun until you have it down. Second, regardless of training, under true life-threatening conditions most people will automatically focus on the threat, such as the opponent's hands or weapon, and it takes a lot of effort to focus on sights under those conditions. The optic is designed to work the way people physiologically respond under stress. Third, at close range just putting the window on the part you want to hit will be good enough.

 

[The Glockodile]

With the RDS - I can now shoot limp - elbowed, with the RDS close to my eyes (gotta watch out for that slide, though!).

You can get on targets sequentially while walking really fast this way.

It's like playing Super Afterburner with the HUD

It's FAST.

Pew pew pew pew pew!

Whoosh! Whoosh!

 

[The Glockodile]

One other thing.

If you can wait and get your slide milled, get it milled...

 

[CapnMac]

Took me a while to get used to the Romeo Zero on my SIG 365X--that's from it co-witnessing with the iron sights. Which means the dot is not centered in the glass of the sight--as with the Holosuns on my ARs.
But, that pistol sight picture is the same as if it were iron sights, so it's a matter of getting familiar.
At least for me.
Your mileage may vary.

 

[shoobe01]

No notable disadvantages. If anything, an excuse to shoot more as you need to get a little used to it.

But the "getting used to it" is getting rid of bad habits. You simply stop missing. You can fool yourself into thinking irons are close enough for rapid/action/defensive/combat shooting at least. If there's no red dot, the sight isn't broken or limiting or whatever; it means you are NOT ON TARGET. Hold/aim the gun better and try again.

I found zero problem with concealability or comfort. I am sure at some level of pocket pistol it's a problem, but not for anything with a holster, even IWB under a t-shirt only, all day.

Advantage: hit everything. Faster. I was thinking of reducing my amount of shooting and goals for handgunning. Switched to RDS and I shoot as well as I ever have. My favorite example is the super compact 6+1 summer/running carry gun. A good 7 yard gun with irons, it is iffy if you get on the body at 25 with a lot of time. Now with an RDS, I can do headshots almost every time at 25 yds.

 

[LeftyRed]

Back in the 50s, they said adjustable power scopes are too fragile to use anywhere except the range. And they would change point of impact losing zero. In the 60s they said adjustable sights were too fragile for duty work. In the 80s they said polymer pistols were to fragile and a fad. Technology marches on.

Added weight? The cap on the pistol that covers the milled area weights more than some RDSs. Added bulk? Sits low and has some above the top line. Hardly call them bulky. I can draw from my pocket with with a 407k mounted on my p365. No more bulkier than a hammer on a revolver, which I prefer.

If you don’t like something, it’s ok to say it’s just not for you. It’s ok not to want to train to use it. There are stuff I don’t want to change at this point in my life, but being able to see my target and hit it is something I will train and adapt too.

 

[The Glockodile]

My wife however carries her 43 all the time on the farm........

Who milled the slide?

Surprised that they can fit it on a Glock 43 slide.

 

[Hangingrock]

While Red Dot Optical sights are interesting, at my age past the mid point of my seventh decade I'm staying with the standard sights employed on my handguns. If I were younger by several decades the Red Dot Sights would interest me. With corrected vision I can still see the sights adequately for the shooting venues I participate in.

 

[shoobe01]

Who milled the slide?

Surprised that they can fit it on a Glock 43 slide.

Not a Glock but in that size range, on the right:


Some people are doing really good work on many of the small guns (some are harder than others!). My very old Kahr P9 got done by Galloway Precision, who does lots of small pistols like this.

For Glock, remember they even make a 43 MOS, pre-cut from the factory. Stock photo:

 

[The Glockodile]

For Glock, remember they even make a 43 MOS, pre-cut from the factory.

I'm a little behind the times!

I didn't realize it was sold as an MOS model, too...

 

[barnetmill]

I had no problem with using a red dot sight. For combat co-witness is a must. Firstly it is a backup for an electronic system that can fail.
2nd, in awkward positions it facilitates acquisition of the red dot.

 

[Craig_AR]

and a slight astigmatism makes them a bit fuzzy for me

Because you use target focus instead of front sight focus when using a red dot the dot is going to be fuzzy, anyway. Having watched numerous YouTube videos by highly experienced RDS instructors, the lesson I learned is that it takes hundreds, maybe thousands of repetitions (dry fire!) for an experienced shooter to shift gears from front sight focus to target focus. Along with that change, you have to break the desire to center the dot in the window in order to fire. If the dot is anywhere in the window and on your target, you are aimed.
The next aspect of adapting to RDS use is solidifying grip and presentation mechanics to bring the dot into view in the window as you bring the gun into position. Without a consistent presentation position, you end up waggling the gun around trying to find the dot.
I began changing to RDS about a year ago, and am still working on all those aspects, including advanced training from RDS instructors.
Also, for EDC I think it is essential to have co-witnessed iron sights n addition to the RDS. Schiff happens, and you don't want to be limited by a dead battery or broken electronics on your slide.
Going to RDS adds cost and new training and practice requirements, but for me it has been well worth it.

 

[Anchorite]

Because you use target focus instead of front sight focus when using a red dot the dot is going to be fuzzy, anyway. Having watched numerous YouTube videos by highly experienced RDS instructors, the lesson I learned is that it takes hundreds, maybe thousands of repetitions (dry fire!) for an experienced shooter to shift gears from front sight focus to target focus. Along with that change, you have to break the desire to center the dot in the window in order to fire. If the dot is anywhere in the window and on your target, you are aimed.
The next aspect of adapting to RDS use is solidifying grip and presentation mechanics to bring the dot into view in the window as you bring the gun into position. Without a consistent presentation position, you end up waggling the gun around trying to find the dot.
I began changing to RDS about a year ago, and am still working on all those aspects, including advanced training from RDS instructors.
Also, for EDC I think it is essential to have co-witnessed iron sights n addition to the RDS. Schiff happens, and you don't want to be limited by a dead battery or broken electronics on your slide.
Going to RDS adds cost and new training and practice requirements, but for me it has been well worth it.

Good stuff, and while I’ve tried a RDS, I just can’t warm up to the idea I actually need one.

If I find myself in a situation where I have to pull my gun in self defense (hopefully never) against another human being, I just feel more comfortable with traditional iron sights. They are not going to fail me, and any such encounter would be at bad breath distance anyway, not a running gun battle or at any distance where a RDS would even come into play, I would imagine.

 

[Hesa Hard1]

Maybe if it’s strictly for range toy/target use. But for me a RD optic makes the pistol feel awkward, especially if it’s on an EDC piece.

On a carbine or rifle, that’s different.

 

[shoobe01]

Minor additions/+1s to all he said:

Because you use target focus instead of front sight focus when using a red dot the dot is going to be fuzzy, anyway...

When trying to decide if the dot is too fuzzy to use for you Do Not Look At The Dot. Sure, it'll be focused at infinity so will be "in focus" when you are looking at the target but do not... let's say, pay attention to it. If, when aiming, switching aim, etc. it is just a red dot and you can aim and click/bang: all good. If it's unclear what part you aim at, makes you want to slow down and figure it out, squint, etc. then it's no good.

MOST people can do this fine with any dot, and minor variations between them are nitpicks, drive lots of people to either indecision or abandoning the idea. Around... 10-20% of the population (especially as we age) will have issues and cannot use all RDS as well as others.

...you have to break the desire to center the dot in the window in order to fire. If the dot is anywhere in the window and on your target, you are aimed...

For handgun ranges this is 100% true but SOMEONE is going to drive by and say parallax is not perfect across the window. True. Does. Not. Matter. I can go into great detail, but these are fractions of an moa and anyone that shoots their handgun to 1/4 moa probably also can center their dot in the window

...Going to RDS adds cost and new training and practice requirements, but for me it has been well worth it.

What I always say about the RDS transition is it just makes you focus on all the things you have been doing wrong. The transition to looking ever so slightly higher, looking at the target and the dot vs the front sight, etc. can be pretty well along very rapidly. Getting it all to come together like you are fresh out of a class is harder.

One good way IS to take a class. Dot up a gun you otherwise know, then take a respectable multiple day pistol class with it.

My way was to get a cheap chinese RDS and badly bolt it to a SIRT (laser trainer) and click around the house (and hotel rooms, I was traveling a lot at the time) to get a few thousand presentations and trigger presses. I'd devote a lot of time to safe dry fire, to airsoft or laser training, or if that is your way to first get a relatively cheaper one and stick it on your favorite .22 trainer, burn a brick of those while your centerfire is off at the machinist or you think of which dot to put on the dot-ready gun you buy.

 

[JR24]

Good stuff, and while I’ve tried a RDS, I just can’t warm up to the idea I actually need one.

If I find myself in a situation where I have to pull my gun in self defense (hopefully never) against another human being, I just feel more comfortable with traditional iron sights. They are not going to fail me, and any such encounter would be at bad breath distance anyway, not a running gun battle or at any distance where a RDS would even come into play, I would imagine.

I used to feel this way too, don’t agree anymore. You can still shoot without irons just as fast in bad breath distance RDS or no, but I’ve found a significant increase in speed and accuracy transitioning and moving at 10-15 yards in particular, but I prefer the 30 MOA circle over the dot.

Plus you can cowitness irons if you need them anyway.

As for getting used to the dot, especially on the draw, I highly recommend something like the ITarget pro system. Gets you plenty of dry fire practice with some indication on your precision and accuracy, has a timed draw feature (which can be nice) and lasts. Took me a weekend and about 2000 presentations to get “used” to the dot before I was ready for the range. Much cheaper to use the dot instead of ammo.

The one “trick” I always need to keep in mind when I’m using the dot (though I don’t need to so much anymore) is to plan to see my irons on the draw, that way my hands and eyes know to grip the gun right and not take shortcuts and end up chasing the dot. That’s simply a training issue but it is something I had to do.