Red dot optics

[hdtramp]

I'm thinking of getting a Hellcat with a red dot (if can ever find one)and got to thinking, does the glass on the optics get damaged with everyday use? Seems like it would be a "ledge" for dirt and such to collect and with your clothes rubbing on it would get scratched. Just wondering if anyone who uses them find this is a problem.

 

[Keith E.]

Speaking from the perspective of a person that CCWs a Trijicon RMR 07, the only worry that you'll have is hitting it with a lens pen when needed.

Keith

 

[CapnMac]

Depends on the sight, really.
Most have enough of a frame to give some protection to the glass.
The "holo" sights seem to collect more crud than having smooge get on the glass.
Protecting the glass is a lot of the appeal to the ACRO.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I like the Aimpoint on my Saint so much that I find myself fantasizing about a red dot for my carry gun (King Cobra). Have not actually investigated possibilities but articles and ads I see seem to imply that a red dot for a handgun has to be specially designed for the handgun in question, is that true?

 

[SwampWolf]

a red dot for a handgun has to be specially designed for the handgun in question, is that true?

I think it mostly has to do with the mounting application; some guns come equipped with mounts and some have to use adapters.
But on a different note (and one that is increasingly a minority opinion), I'd give this some thought before I leaped for several reasons:

Imo, mounting a red dot on top of a handgun being carried concealed sort of detracts from its purpose; adding bulk and weight to a gun meant to be hidden away until needed. Different types of holsters have to be used to accommodate the change in shape of the gun, adding to the cost of the transition to optics.

But the biggest reason I'm not changing is because I don't have the time nor the money to make me proficient with a red dot. I have no doubt that a red dot sight will make you a more accurate and faster shooter. Most serious competitors in tactical shooting venues seem to have adopted them and they don't do things on a whim if they mean to win. But I'm an old dog who, for the past fifty years or so while in the military and after a career in le, was trained to find the front sight and focus on it for the shot. And, yes, I'm aware that this protocol runs counter to human nature in that most of us will instinctively look to the threat and not to the sight but lots of time and training has made the front sight my place to be in any shooting endeavor, be it paper targets or flesh and blood.

Friends of mine have red dots and swear by them. I've tried their set-ups enough to come to this conclusion: given enough time and ammunition, a red dot sight would likely make me a better shooter. But I don't have the time at my age, nor the money and, frankly, nor the inclination to make the transition. And I still think any optical device on my edc guns necessarily compromises their utility in terms of size and weight.

I don't mean to discourage you from trying something maybe better; just advising that you think this through before taking the plunge. Despite what anyone says, if you've been shooting a certain way for a long time, proficiency in a new method will come at a price. The cost may well be worthwhile but there is still an unavoidable price to pay.

In any event, good luck. I love reading your posts.

 

[Telum Pisces]

I have a Hellcat with a Shield sight red dot and I love it. It gets lint and dust on the lens/glass. But I carry daily and do not have any issues with it.

The sight is completely co-witness with the iron sights and has allowed me to put a round on target quicker from a draw.

 

[BoomRabbit]

It REALLY depends on the sight, but here is the problem with Red Dot sights... you spend longer looking for the dot than it takes to fire the weapon. Irons, especially a lot of upgraded irons like Fiber or tritium, allows you to yank/aim/fire in one motion. If you have to find the dot on your red dot first you're dead if they know what they are doing, especially within 15ft.

Then again I was security forces, I dealt with a different kind of jerk if they popped their top lol. That said no one is going to give you time to turn up the brightness if you can't quite see the dot because of the sun, or wipe off a foggy lens, or turn on the sight in general. Personally I'd spend my money on a good thumb/palm activated laser. Red Dot sights LOOK great, and are fun at the range, but in a real situation they can be real deadly... to the user. They aren't like an ACOG or Aimpoint on a carbine, where you turn it on and leave it that way, sometimes for hours... the ones that are ALWAYS "on", rarely get damaged, etc? Cost a fortune. You could get a bore sighting laser, a palm activated laser sight, and another pistol for the cost of a GOOD Red Dot.

Besides that the Hellcat is really small for any of the great RMR sights. They might fit but you just lost one of it's biggest strengths of being universally concealable basically anywhere, even under a T-Shirt. Soooo, yeah, on a Hellcat go with a trigger clipped, under riding laser sight and call her good. Set the activator on the back of the grip so your palm always activates it as soon as you grip it. Doing that keeps the Hellcat able to be concealed up your sleeve like a magician, but still enhances your sight time. Anything that slows it down is really really precious time lost in a real world situation, especially if there is more than one target. Think of how much happens in less than 1 second of, say, a video game. The same applies to real world situations. When seconds turn into minutes, spending a second to find your dot to aquire a second time is likely the same second in which the other target fires... or charge into you.

Or you do what @Telum Pisces has done and find a sight that doesn't block your view of your irons. That gives you the option of both sight formats... your initial aim can be down the irons, and if the target begins to back down you can let your eyes relax and focus on the Dot.

 

[BCR#1]

I really, really like both of my 509's and their dots but no way would I ever use either for CCW in their current configuration.

Bill

 

[Richard Jay King]

I love me some red-dot holo sights! For old eyes they make hangun hunting a real "thing" again...However on the little 9mm auto I carry from time to time I do NOT want one on it....It adds bulk, weight, and even though I could shoot more accurately with it...for my purposes it gives me NO advantage. I carry a gun to try to deter an attacking thug just outside the length of the thugs arm plus a tire iron. That is as far as I ever think I would ever shoot so a bulky red-dot is NO advantage....I don't even have to use sights inside 10 feet to deter a thug....However if I was a LEO and likely to get into gun battles at..say 25 meters or even more then I would be carrying a full sized combat handgun and a holo sight would really be an advantage at the longer ranges....

 

[SharpDog]

If you clean your lens with a dirty (gritty) lens cloth and use some moderate pressure you will scratch the lens. Get a lens pen that has a brush and use a clean lens cloth. You can make your own cleaning solution by using 1% dish detergent in alcohol.

 

[oldgold]

Back in the 80's when I started in IPSIC I had a 1911 with a dot sight. A long learning curve to reacquire the dot from shot to shot. Transitioned to a TZ/CZ pistol and no problem. The main problem was the 1911 doesn't 'point' for me but the TZ does. No knock on 1911's but they just don't fit my hand. I always tell anyone who asks , 'If the gun doesn't point naturally for you , find one that does. I suspect this is a problem that some people have with red dots.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

It REALLY depends on the sight, but here is the problem with Red Dot sights... you spend longer looking for the dot than it takes to fire the weapon. Irons, especially a lot of upgraded irons like Fiber or tritium, allows you to yank/aim/fire in one motion. If you have to find the dot on your red dot first you're dead if they know what they are doing, especially within 15ft.

That's 100% a training issue and one that evaporates once you learn how to shoot with a RDS. Like any skill it just takes time and work to learn.

 

[herrwalther]

My optic on my concealed carry firearm has not been damaged in the year plus I have been using it for daily carry. Every couple of weeks I wipe off the lens with a cloth or lens pen of dust. A holster that is formed around a red dot will go a long way keeping it functional as well.

 

[A526051]

Sig replaced the Romeo Zero that came on my 365xl, due to scratches in the lense from ejected cartridges. They said the problem was worse when 115 gr ammo was used. I never mounted the new Romeo Zero, I replaced the Zero, with a Holosun HS507K, which is a direct replacement for the Romeo Zero. The Holosun is a metal body and glass lense, so it should hold up better, and it has so far. Also on the Holosun, you can chose to have the single red dot, or the 32moa grid.

 

[1942bull]

Personally, I believe in staying basic for the reason @BoomRabbit cited in post 7 above.

sights... you spend longer looking for the dot than it takes to fire the weapon. Irons, especially a lot of upgraded irons like Fiber or tritium, allows you to yank/aim/fire in one motion. If you have to find the dot on your red dot first you're dead if they know what they are doing, especially within 15ft.

Of course I am thinking in terms of an EDC gunfire SD. KISS. Is my basic instinct when it comes to critical thinking: Keep It Simple Stupid. Do not want a sight tha that could break if a I dive or get there own onto the ground. I’m do not want to rely on batteries unless I have no choice. If it reruns on electricity is has a printed circuits. They can fail, especially if they get wet.

WhenI learned to drive (1958) we had a brand new auto transmission car and a stick shift. My dad mad me learn on and take the state driver test with the stick shift. As he said to me: if you can drive a stick shift you can drive any car. That was practical advice. I,learned the basics of regulating a transmission, and that even makes me better at driving an auto transmission. I am just going to stay an iron sights guy.

 

[taliv]

in 2013 i switched from carrying a WC 1911 in 45acp to a S&W M&P CORE 9mm with trijicon RMR Dual Illumination (no battery, always on, works like an ACOG). It took me about 1000 rounds over a month of practice (ammo was cheap then) to get to the point i was seeing the green dot faster than the iron sights.
That setup has been my daily carry for 8 years now. I own 4 of them (one without an RMR). Combined, I know I put over 40,000 rounds through them by 2018. I've long since lost count. And in 2018 I had to RMA one of the RMR because the dot got really dim.

To answer the OP, no damage, but the glass does collect a bit of lint. Can collect rain if you're open carrying. I usually use my shirt tail to just wipe off the inside lens when i put it on if it looks like there's lint or dust build up. long term, i'm sure that isn't great for it, but we're talking a freakin pistol optic here, not a Schmidt und Bender.

It REALLY depends on the sight, but here is the problem with Red Dot sights... you spend longer looking for the dot than it takes to fire the weapon.

this is an issue initially, if you don't practice enough to consistently get the right grip. definitely don't just throw a dot on your carry gun and not practice. you'll be worse off than you were with irons. however, as was stated above, it's a training issue and can be addressed with a reasonable amount of dry fire.

Then again I was security forces, I dealt with a different kind of jerk if they popped their top lol. That said no one is going to give you time to turn up the brightness if you can't quite see the dot because of the sun, or wipe off a foggy lens, or turn on the sight in general. Personally I'd spend my money on a good thumb/palm activated laser. Red Dot sights LOOK great, and are fun at the range, but in a real situation they can be real deadly... to the user. They aren't like an ACOG or Aimpoint on a carbine, where you turn it on and leave it that way, sometimes for hours... the ones that are ALWAYS "on", rarely get damaged, etc? Cost a fortune. You could get a bore sighting laser, a palm activated laser sight, and another pistol for the cost of a GOOD Red Dot.

while the dual illum RMR dot isn't as bright as the battery powered ones, it does actually work precisely like an ACOG. The same fiber optic is on top of the optic and the dot varies in intensity with ambient light. They're not overly expensive. $300-400ish.
I'm not in security, and maybe it's dark when you're working, but lasers in daylight seem useless. The red dot is better if you practice.

Or you do what @Telum Pisces has done and find a sight that doesn't block your view of your irons. That gives you the option of both sight formats... your initial aim can be down the irons, and if the target begins to back down you can let your eyes relax and focus on the Dot.

my choice of the CORE is that it comes with tall sights allowing both irons and optics to be used. however, planning to start with irons and shift to the dot seems suboptimal. if you practice enough to actually do that, you can just start with the dot and never need to go to irons. if you don't practice, then trying to do something like that under stress without it being a reflexive habit seems highly unlikely.

 

[webrx]

I have dots on a couple carbines, a shotgun, and one handgun, my little .22 neos is wearing an inexpensive dot right now, and am learning to acquire and shoot with the dot on a pistol. I like that the dot does not move on the neos, since the slide is below the rail. With more expensive and hardened dots that probably is not an issue, but, I went less expensive to see if I liked it so this works for me for now.



Right now, I think Dots are great at the range, but don't see myself with a carry gun that wears one, maybe once I get better, we will see. I feel there are too many variables for me, electronics, battery, brightness, finding the dot, etc, i assume with practice and a more expensive dot, some of these go away, and I do agree as I am getting more practice in that finding the dot is getting easier - so that may just be training as stated above.

For SD I use irons currently, I practice point shooting (instinctive/reflexive) from the draw for short SD distances 7 yards or less and finding the sights if I have time and for the second shot, it is actually hard to explain for me, others can probably explain better, but, the first shot is made when the gun is aligned, and while I probably see the sights, I don't focus on them as much initially, that was how I was taught, get the first shot center mass instinctively and as quickly and accurately as possible.

I could see (I am not there yet) maybe using a dot in the future, and I am practicing since my eyes are getting worse due to age, but for now, my carry guns do not wear Red dots. Might be cuz I am older and learned to shoot with irons on my pistols and that is more comfortable for me, and I might just be set in my way and it is hard for me to change something I have been doing for a lot of years.

This is just what I do, not meant to tell you what you should do, that is up to you.

d

 

[Hangingrock]

At the midpoint of my seventh decade, I don't foresee the employment of a Red-Dot-Sight on my EDC. I'm done chasing the next greatest thing. My eyesight is adequate for the Night-Sights mounted on the EDC.

 

[Tom-R2]

If you have your irons cowitnessed with the dot, and you find yourself chasing the dot, I'm going to say you chase your irons - or you just get it close and pull the trigger. I've been running a Trijicon RMR on a Glock 23 for several years since I was having issues with cataracts. It really helped. Now that the cataract situation had been taken care of, it is even better. It doesn't catch on my clothing, it doesn't make it more difficult to carry. It doesn't make it more noticeable when concealed. I have a few holsters that fit correctly, both IWB and OWB. It's never just "gone out", although the brightness does begin to fade a little as the battery gets older. It's easy to know when to change the battery. Is there a learning curve? Yes. But mine was not nearly what others have reported. Not even close.

Now, someone else may have it hang on their clothes, may have other reported difficulties, I don't know. I'm certainly not going to say that someone else's experience isn't true since I don't know what their experience has been. I'm just saying that I've not experienced all of the difficulties that others report. None.

I just put a Holosun 507k on my new Ruger Max-9. Two clicks up on the elevation and it's right on the money. I like them for what they are - a tool that sits on my pistol, that is also a tool.

 

[taliv]

At the midpoint of my seventh decade, I don't foresee the employment of a Red-Dot-Sight on my EDC. I'm done chasing the next greatest thing. My eyesight is adequate for the Night-Sights mounted on the EDC.

In fairness there were quality red dots out at the beginning of your 6th decade

 

[Craig_AR]

I'm very new to red dots, less than a year of experience with them long guns, and only a few months on my EDC 9. Before diving in I became aware of the disagreements among experts and instructors on the value for carry guns. Two instructors that I value and follow on YouTube, John Correia (Active Self Protection Extra), and John Lovell (Warrior Poet Society) both carry with RDS and recommend them. Correia also recommends extensive training and practice with the RDS to actually change from front-sight-focus to target-focus, pointing to Scott Jedlinski (Jedi) as a great RDS instructor.
Balancing the equation is Tom Givens, if I recall correctly, is not a fan of RDS. Since Tom is on THR, he might comment here.