Red Dot or iron sights?

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No matter how well you've trained yourself to keep up with your batteries, it is undeniable fact that it is still one more thing to keep up with.


If you can't keep fresh batteries in your important equipment, I question if you are responsible enough to be handling firearms in the first place.
I have a REAL problem with this statement. I don't even see how the two are remotely related. I know for a fact that it is real easy to let your batteries run low, red dot or weaponlight. It's also real easy to misplace your battery stash. It might be real easy to keep up with when you have "dozens" but when you own several dozen guns and only a few require batteries, it's quite different. We can disagree about batteries and electronic sights all day long and that is fine. However, take it far enough to question whether or not I'm responsible enough to handle firearms and I take that very personally. As should most everybody else. I take my guns, my shooting and my freedom to own and use them VERY seriously. So I take questioning whether or not I should be able to do so VERY seriously. :mad:
 
At the end of the day you get what you pay for. If you're doing range plinking, you can get away with lower pricepoint gear than someone who sends a thousand rounds downrange doing training in the dirt or banging their guns against barricades. Everything can potentially fail including the firearm itself so "it might fail" isn't really an excuse to avoid technology. If you can objectively evaluate your situation and needs and ask the right questions, you should he ale to figure out what gear you need.
 
I know for a fact that it is real easy to let your batteries run low, red dot or weaponlight.

Problem solved.

I mean, c'mon. A big part of shooting is keeping track of equipment; from ear plugs to targets to ammunition. If an optic on your gun requires batteries, find a convenient way to carry some spares. This isn't exactly rocket science.

Presumably we all have smoke detectors in our houses, and we change the batteries in those once a year, I fail to see why basic battery replacement is so much harder on a gun, especially when some dot scopes like the ones made by Aimpoint have battery run times measured in the thousands of hours.
 
A solution I use. If you look at the pic below you'll see the Aimpoint has a really long battery cover. That's because there is a spare battery stored under the cap. So I basically have 10 years of battery life that goes everywhere with the gun.

The Larue Aimpoint mounts usually have a spare battery compartment built into them, which works nicely too.

BSW

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Knights makes a spare battery cover for the Aimpoint T-1 series as well. I change the batteries on my Aimpoints and Trijicon RMRs every year on my birthday and write the date on the battery. I don't really care if the Aimpoint battery still has 80% juice left. Logistically, spending $10 a year on fresh batteries is peace of mind and a negligible investment to keep you running. It requires no mental juggling of how old the batteries are in various devices.
 
This isn't exactly rocket science.
Oh please. Like I said, if the weapons that are your primary focus require batteries, then it's easy. However, if it is but a fraction of your shooting and interest, it is easy to lose track. This is coming from a guy who keeps a couple boxes of Surefire 123's on hand and stores spares in vertical foregrip, pistol grip and buttstock compartments. One rifle wears a big Surefire M4 so you can bet your backside that I keep batteries closeby. Still, I've got half a dozen lights that use 123's, those that use double and triple A's, some that use button batteries, etc.. I have but two rifles with electronic red dots and two more with illuminated reticles. I do a pretty good job keeping up with the electronics but among 70+ other guns, it can get to be a lot to keep up with when most your guns wear peep sights. :rolleyes:

I have the Magpul ACS on my AR.
 
I think a rugged optic is all you need. So many people putting on buis it's more like another tacticool accessory. Just added weight and clutter and that whole cowitnessing nonsense... If it has it on the barrel like a hunting rifle fine... not easily removed, generally smaller and out of the way.

either way I would never do batteries for life and death. Check out trijicons fiber optic products. Problem solved. tr24 is 1 to 4 mag you could use it both eyes open as you would a reflex.
 
I think if something happens to your rifle that is bad enough to break an Aimpoint, it is just as likely if not more likely to break just about any of those folding iron sights that everybody uses now. A factory carry handle sight might be a little more robust than an Aimpoint, but not by much. Aimpoints are just rock solid. The advantage in speed, low-light performance, and lack of parallax more than makes up for the minor inconvenience of having to switch out the battery every few years.
 
OK, my turn.

Iron sights work - I consistently hit 300 yard pop-ups with them when I was in the service. They truly suck in low light though, even with the large aperture on the rear sight engaged. They also require you to focus on the front sight which throws everything downrange out of focus. You can still shoot well doing this, but it works best with high-contrast targets and young eyes.

Optics allow you to focus on one focal plane -- there's no issue of the target being blurry, the front sight being sharp, and the rear sight kinda-sorta in your awareness if you think about it. Rather, you get to look at your target and see where the point of aim is at the same time. This really is an improvement over irons.

There are some problems though. If you throw your rifle off a waterfall, or if you trip while walking up a steep rocky incline and accidentally throw your rifle so that it bounces down 50-100 feet of trail, will the optic hold up? If it's parked in the closet and you suddenly need it Right Frigging Now will the battery still be running? These are issues that worry folks.

Luckily, we've been putting optics on weapons for a while now, even in combat, and there are a lot of vendors who make optics that are the next best thing to bulletproof. Search on youtube for torture test of optics and you'll be surprised. I was looking for one where a guy grabs the muzzle end of his rifle and swings it so that his US Optics scope hits a wooden fence post a few times, but found this first. It's not all that abusive, but it's more than I subject $2,500 optics to:



US Optics, Trijicon, Aimpoint, Schmidt & Bender, Nightforce, ELCAN, and others make optics that can be counted on to be durable and waterproof. In my opinion they all are a better option than iron sights, but I'll point out that my carbines have backup iron sights as well.

The question you should be asking is this: what kind of optic are you looking for?

Option 1: non-magnifying optics

These are generally seen as iron sight replacements and are fairly quick to get on target. You have options here:

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Aimpoint. This one is an older model but they all work comparably. What you're seeing is a durable housing for a battery, electronics, and some optics. Look through the tube, see a red dot at your point of aim. Kind of hard to screw up.

They are battery dependent, but battery life is long (years) and many setups include a spare battery as part of the basic kit. They work well, and are issued to troops and seem to work pretty well in combat.

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Trijicon Reflex: This is kind of like the aimpoint, but different. You look through the optic and see an amber triangle that represents your point of aim. No batteries though -- brightness is controlled by fiber optics, so the brighter it is outside the brighter your reticle becomes. In low (or zero) light there's tritium so you still have an aiming point.

Less to go wrong, but sometimes the reticle can be hard to find. I've never had that problem, but it's been reported.

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Eotech: I think these are about the easiest thing to shoot with for close-up work, though I've never bought one. Battery dependent, options for reticles (like this one)

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There are others, but these are the big players. All offer easy target acquisition at close range and in questionable lighting situations, and there are trade-offs with each one.

The problem with them all is this: they're not nearly as good as some other optics for ranged work. I think my Aimpoint has a 12 MOA reticle (meaning it covers up a foot-wide piece of the target at 100 yards), but it looks like current models are typically 4 MOA. This means that pretty much any carbine you mount these to will outshoot the optic -- the reticle is big enough to cover up the target and make real precision work hard.

Now, does that matter? 4 MOA is still more than good enough for hits on a man-sized target at 300 yards, but it's not perfect. It also hurts if that guy at 300 yards is shooting back at you, blends into the environment, and is taking cover. In those cases you want more magnification.

Option 2: Fixed Magnification.

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The Trijicon ACOG is pretty much the standard here, at least to my mind. 4 power scope, doesn't require batteries because fiber optics pipes in ambient light, durable, and seemed to do pretty well over the the middle east.

Some have reticles that are designed to look through for close quarters combat, and it seems to work. I've never tried it.

You can modify an Aimpoint or EOTech with a magnifier (Justin did a review of one here). I saw precursors to this at the 75th Ranger Battalion ~ 1992 so this isn't that new of an idea, and it works. Sort of.

There are ELCAN optics in the 3.5x range as well that mostly do well (I'm biased -- I love ELCAN optics) but have some weaknesses at the mount when soldiers beat them up. Really though, the Trijicon ACOG is the archetype in my mind.

Option 3: Variables

There's another class of optics that 3-gunners have embraced pretty strongly. These are scopes that go from 1x power up to 4-6-8x power, depending on the model. This allows you to run with no magnification and a lit reticle at short range like the aimpoints and EOTechs, but you can crank the magnification up when you're shooting targets at 200m and beyond, up to the ballistics of the rifle.

Here's the one I'm currently reviewing, from SWFA:

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It's not perfect, but it may be the value leader in this range.

It's competing with optics from US Optics, Schmidt & Bender, ELCAN, Trijicon, Leupold, Zeiss, and others. All seem like reasonable choices. I really like the ELCAN Spectre DR -- it uses a lever to swap from 1x to 4x and the optics are impeccable, of course it's quite pricy. Others who shoot more than I do seem to favor the S&B Short Dot or the Zeiss Z6i, both of which probably cost more than your rifle did.

This class of optic seems like the best solution for carbines to me. They work well at any engagement range, don't require batteries (they're traditional scopes and have etched reticles) but offer illumination if needed, and allow you to choose the magnification based on what you're doing. The only one with a lever is the ELCAN, the others have a ring you twist like with any other variable scope.

Finally, mounts

If you look at the photos above you'll see durable, well-built optics that are mounted on quick-release mounts. If you need to move to irons with these sights you can, and quickly. Well, it'll be between 5 and 15 seconds to perform the swap, but I'm more than willing to assume that possibility in order to enjoy the advantages that modern optics offer for carbines.
 

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I forgot until now. Daniel Defense did a torture test on their rifle which included setting off tannerite next to the rifle and throwing from a helicopter. The rifle survived all tests. The rifle had an Aimpoint T-1 on their DD mount. The Aimpoint had one of the glass lenses shatter after the helicopter drop but it continued to function with a slight POI shift. The T-1 still projected onto the remaining lens. Of course, this is a sampling of one, but it should give confidence to the product.

https://danieldefense.com/torturetest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCBcV2Nb2Wo

For variables, add Nightforce, Kahles, Hensoldt, and Premier Reticles to the mix of rugged products. Steiner (of binoculars fame) is also gearing up on military optics. I have dropped my rifle on the objective before. It was a US Optics SN-3. It bent the LaRue mount but the scope came out unscathed. Scopes can be just as delicate as electronic devices, or they can,be built incredibly well. There are dozens of lenses and fine mechanisms inside and most scopes have illumination electronics within.
 
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Hi briansmithwins, sorry for the late reply.

No timed gun games, just SD at 0-50 yards on ISPC targets and quick singles on steel at 100 yards. I have replaced the stock front sight with an XS 24/7 tritium bar:

http://www.xssights.com/index.php?nID=sights&cID=Sights&pID=sights&sID=tactical

I prefer to shoot with my nose on the charging handle and find this is not conducive with the Aimpoint. I've also got the rifle dialed in with the Improved Battle Zero and can hit pretty much anything I want within 100 yards. I also like the simplicity, ruggedness and reliablity of iron sights.

The Aimpoint is well made, I just don't really care for it. It sits atop a 16" Colt. (and it's got the LaRue mount and, yes!, there is storage for a spare battery)
 
No timed gun games, just SD at 0-50 yards on ISPC targets and quick singles on steel at 100 yards.

A timer is not a substitute for combat by any means. However, I've found that a timer cuts the BS. What I thought would work might fall apart when I had to perform under stress, in front of witnesses.

Red dots get you hits faster than irons. Only hits count.

BSW
 
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