Red dot or irons

[Show Me]

The same thing thats happened to those who cant drive a stick, or read a tool that isn't digital, etc. They only know what they know, and they will be stuck there if they arent willing to learn as much as they can about as much as they can.

And this isn't just a problem for those that have only learned the current things either, its also a problem for those who refuse to keep moving forward and continue to learn. As soon as you quit bothering to learn, you stagnate and get left behind. Age has nothing to do with any of this either.

Old mechanic told me if your ever too old to learn something new you might as well be dead. During summer shop class I like to pull out my old craftsman veneer calipers and watch them struggle. No dial, no LED , oh my

 

[JJFitch]

Do your own research. After many interviews of self-defense shootings. very few defenders could remember seeing a sight picture!
Couple that with the most common S/D scenario, 3 rounds, 3 seconds at 3 yards!
Go to one of the computer aided self-defense training centers and go through some scenarios. If you have to take time to find your sights in most of the scenarios you are behind the curve and will be shooting after being shot!
If you think a "red dot" will help in shooting beyond "a reasonable" self-defense distance you might want to talk to a $800 an hour defense attorney!
Unless you or a family member is in JEOPARDY you first responsibility is to find cover and be a good witness. Which means being able to articulate that taking a "defensive" shot using your new high tech R/D beyond a "certain" distance might be a huge problem!

 

[.38 Special]

"Finding the dot" ended up being an issue that didn't materialize. My son said, "You already index to see the sights; if you see the sights, you'll see the dot."

And I do.

Larry

I've been thinking about this recently. It seems to me that when I first added a dot to a competition gun, circa 1988 or so, there was next to no time involved in getting right to work. I don't recall any struggle whatsoever, and I suspect your son had it exactly right.

By the same token, I really struggled when I recently bought a Glock with a dot. The issue, in retrospect, had nothing to do with the dot and everything to do with the Glock: I just wasn't used to that grip angle, and ended up hunting for the sights regardless of style.

 

[trackskippy]

Do your own research. After many interviews of self-defense shootings. very few defenders could remember seeing a sight picture!
Couple that with the most common S/D scenario, 3 rounds, 3 seconds at 3 yards!
Go to one of the computer aided self-defense training centers and go through some scenarios. If you have to take time to find your sights in most of the scenarios you are behind the curve and will be shooting after being shot!
If you think a "red dot" will help in shooting beyond "a reasonable" self-defense distance you might want to talk to a $800 an hour defense attorney!
Unless you or a family member is in JEOPARDY you first responsibility is to find cover and be a good witness. Which means being able to articulate that taking a "defensive" shot using your new high tech R/D beyond a "certain" distance might be a huge problem!

I think some of the problems in understanding some things here, is some people seem to have varying forms of tunnel vision and are fixated on certain ideas and/or scenarios, and arent seeing the big picture.

How many who insist on only worrying about the 3/3/3 thing, actually realistically practice just for that, shooting up close from a holster or however they carry their guns, while moving and shooting rapidly and repeatedly, without sights? It doesn't matter what sights are on the gun when you're shooting without using them, but you do have to practice shooting that way if you want to be the least bit competent and proficient at it. You also have to be able to do it without thinking about doing it.

And what do you do when you get something beyond contact distances and you "have" to respond?

The whole point here is being prepared, for whatever you "might" get. Not just what you're constantly told you "will" get. It shouldn't matter what gun you have, or what the sights are, "you" should be able to shoot however necessary and called on to do so in the moment, in a real world environment, whether or not you think its fair or what you're ready, or not, for. That requires a lot of actual, constant hard work from you, and that's just trying to keep up. Its not the Matrix and you cant absorb the skills necessary from reading and talking about it on the web.

Reasonable and realistic self-defense type distances are ANY that you might get and have to respond to. Self defense is self defense.

And contrary to what a lot seem to want to tell you, this isn't likely going to be "your" choice, and you "just might" actually have to deal with things beyond what you've been constantly told you'll get, let alone trained for, like it or not. The real question is, are you competent and prepared enough to deal with things across the board and beyond the 3 feet you're constantly told is all you will get, should you need to?

Big picture.

I've been thinking about this recently. It seems to me that when I first added a dot to a competition gun, circa 1988 or so, there was next to no time involved in getting right to work. I don't recall any struggle whatsoever, and I suspect your son had it exactly right.

By the same token, I really struggled when I recently bought a Glock with a dot. The issue, in retrospect, had nothing to do with the dot and everything to do with the Glock: I just wasn't used to that grip angle, and ended up hunting for the sights regardless of style.

The first gun I put a red dot on was a SIG P320 and soon after that, a Glock 47 and 19. I pick up the dot with all of them the same, and the grip angle isn't an issue. Its just a matter of presenting the gun up in a manner that your eye picks up the dot while you're focused on the target. Focus is on the target and dot, not the gun or the dot.

Initially for me, forgetting about the front sight and presenting the gun as I would when I point shoot over top of the gun, made things a lot easier for me. The sight/dot is basically in the same plane as my line of sight shooting that way. If you do the same with iron sights, and roll your head down slightly after the gun is presented, the irons are usually lined up pretty good and right on there.

Personally, I think if the grip angle thing is all in your head and you just haven't shot the different guns enough to have the index buried in your brain. I regularly shoot a number of different guns, with differing grip angles, and the difference in impact between the first round or two hits when switching between them and shooting reactively on target is usually minimal and wouldn't make a difference. If you track the front sight or target/dot as you present the gun, you don't see a difference at all. And any rounds after the first, your brain is already on it and its taken care of things.

 

[.38 Special]

Personally, I think if the grip angle thing is all in your head and you just haven't shot the different guns enough to have the index buried in your brain. I regularly shoot a number of different guns, with differing grip angles, and the difference in impact between the first round or two hits when switching between them and shooting reactively on target is usually minimal and wouldn't make a difference. If you track the front sight or target/dot as you present the gun, you don't see a difference at all. And any rounds after the first, your brain is already on it and its taken care of things.

I'll only note that whatever flaws I have do not stem from lack of experience, and leave it at that.

 

[NeverEnoughFDE]

Holsters that work for CC seem to be a major sticking point...the ones I've run across conceal like a cross between an unabridged Bible and a colostomy bag: that postage stamp sized gizmo sticking up just plays hell with the drape of my chinos. YMMv...Irons for me....Rod (But the RD I've got on one of my AR's is easy to find, and no more bulky than the old fixed carry handle on our M-16's from the 70's)

I have run Alien Gear IWB holsters for years without issue

 

[NeverEnoughFDE]

Why Slaving the Dot to the Irons is Wrong

In this video, Aaron discusses why indexing or "slaving" your MRDS dot to irons on the handgun is not a proper zero.

youtu.be

Zeroing a Handgun Red Dot Sight

In this video, Aaron elaborates on zeroing an MRDS for a handgun.

youtu.be

Thank you. Had a 407k in the parts bin so slapped that one 1 of my pistols & will give the dot a try again.

 

[Styx]

The catch is you can't just pick up your buddies dot gun at the range and fire a magazine or two and compare. You have to put in the dry fire reps first to see the speed difference.

That is EXACTLY what most do. This shoot a mag or two using a reddot, and then dismiss them.

 

[Styx]

Do your own research. After many interviews of self-defense shootings. very few defenders could remember seeing a sight picture!

As to your other point about "very few defenders could remember seeing a sight picture," I'd say very few who are in self-defense shootings have trained to. Most criminals and victims who are firing at each other are pointing their muzzles in the other's direction while they empty the mag. When you train, your muscle memory will automatically have your sights where they need to be when your handgun is drawn.

I can tell you another thing, when I get into the habit and repetition of doing something thousands of times, I find myself still doing it without realizing or remembering that I did.

Couple that with the most common S/D scenario, 3 rounds, 3 seconds at 3 yards!
Go to one of the computer aided self-defense training centers and go through some scenarios. If you have to take time to find your sights in most of the scenarios you are behind the curve and will be shooting after being shot!

I've watched countless YouTube CCTV video, cellphone footage, and news reports of shootings, and contrary to the social media predetermined assumptions that 99% of self-defense shootings outside of the home will be only 3 yards and only take 3 shots, that's not what I've witnessed.

Here's what you are overlooking with regards to these "computer aided self-defense scenarios." Just because I have iron sights or red dots on the top of my slide doesn't mean I always have to utilize them. You know, I can still point and shoot with my iron and optic equipped handgun if the situation calls for it???

If you think a "red dot" will help in shooting beyond "a reasonable" self-defense distance you might want to talk to a $800 an hour defense attorney!
Unless you or a family member is in JEOPARDY you first responsibility is to find cover and be a good witness. Which means being able to articulate that taking a "defensive" shot using your new high tech R/D beyond a "certain" distance might be a huge problem!

Red dots are faster and offer other benefits (target focused and helping the vision impaired) at self-defense distance, and they offer a faster and more accrate shot at further distances. It just offers more options and flexibility. There have been and very well may be situations where one may have to take a 40 yards shot to stop an active threat <hint, hint>.

 

[JJFitch]

I think some of the problems in understanding some things here, is some people seem to have varying forms of tunnel vision and are fixated on certain ideas and/or scenarios, and arent seeing the big picture.

How many who insist on only worrying about the 3/3/3 thing, actually realistically practice just for that, shooting up close from a holster or however they carry their guns, while moving and shooting rapidly and repeatedly, without sights? It doesn't matter what sights are on the gun when you're shooting without using them, but you do have to practice shooting that way if you want to be the least bit competent and proficient at it. You also have to be able to do it without thinking about doing it.

And what do you do when you get something beyond contact distances and you "have" to respond?

The whole point here is being prepared, for whatever you "might" get. Not just what you're constantly told you "will" get. It shouldn't matter what gun you have, or what the sights are, "you" should be able to shoot however necessary and called on to do so in the moment, in a real world environment, whether or not you think its fair or what you're ready, or not, for. That requires a lot of actual, constant hard work from you, and that's just trying to keep up. Its not the Matrix and you cant absorb the skills necessary from reading and talking about it on the web.

Reasonable and realistic self-defense type distances are ANY that you might get and have to respond to. Self defense is self defense.

And contrary to what a lot seem to want to tell you, this isn't likely going to be "your" choice, and you "just might" actually have to deal with things beyond what you've been constantly told you'll get, let alone trained for, like it or not. The real question is, are you competent and prepared enough to deal with things across the board and beyond the 3 feet you're constantly told is all you will get, should you need to?

Big picture.


The first gun I put a red dot on was a SIG P320 and soon after that, a Glock 47 and 19. I pick up the dot with all of them the same, and the grip angle isn't an issue. Its just a matter of presenting the gun up in a manner that your eye picks up the dot while you're focused on the target. Focus is on the target and dot, not the gun or the dot.

Initially for me, forgetting about the front sight and presenting the gun as I would when I point shoot over top of the gun, made things a lot easier for me. The sight/dot is basically in the same plane as my line of sight shooting that way. If you do the same with iron sights, and roll your head down slightly after the gun is presented, the irons are usually lined up pretty good and right on there.

Personally, I think if the grip angle thing is all in your head and you just haven't shot the different guns enough to have the index buried in your brain. I regularly shoot a number of different guns, with differing grip angles, and the difference in impact between the first round or two hits when switching between them and shooting reactively on target is usually minimal and wouldn't make a difference. If you track the front sight or target/dot as you present the gun, you don't see a difference at all. And any rounds after the first, your brain is already on it and its taken care of things.

I agree with your post regarding preparing for all the "what if's"! But as a trainer I see too many people wanting to rely on R/Ds without putting in the time to really learn "self defense shooting" and practice scenarios as in some of the "shooting games". When they do they invariably have difficulty making hits to "stop the threat". And get frustrated with the R/D's and want to blame their short comings on technology! I always start with "irons" and precise sight pictures and move on to flash sight pictures and then to point shooting at 5-7 yards. Before we even talk about R/D's and longer distances! Just look at how long it took PD's and SD's to approve R/D's for first responders!

 

[drobs]

Old Dog new Tricks.

I've been working on my "presentation" a term than never existed till pistol RDS got popular.

Quick drawing from a holster and lining up the red dot on a called spot - tree, truck tire, etc. My goal being to see to the dot on the object on every draw. I have done a maybe a couple hundred draws so far and it seems to be getting easier.

Doing it slowly, I Line up my sights - and there's the dot. Doing quick draws, my goal is to see the dot.
When I draw and don't see the dot, it most likely means my front sight is not level with my rear sight.

 

[GBExpat]

Over the decades I have accumulated quite a few handguns, many of which have spent time in my EDC lineup. None them is machined for a RDS so no RDS for me ... yet ...

Next time I consider acquiring an EDC-possible handgun, I intend to research the subject.

 

[trackskippy]

I agree with your post regarding preparing for all the "what if's"! But as a trainer I see too many people wanting to rely on R/Ds without putting in the time to really learn "self defense shooting" and practice scenarios as in some of the "shooting games". When they do they invariably have difficulty making hits to "stop the threat". And get frustrated with the R/D's and want to blame their short comings on technology! I always start with "irons" and precise sight pictures and move on to flash sight pictures and then to point shooting at 5-7 yards. Before we even talk about R/D's and longer distances! Just look at how long it took PD's and SD's to approve R/D's for first responders!

I would say that whats in bold applies to all types of sights and more likely than not, applies to most people who carry a gun these days, scary as that is.

I know a lot of people who carry guns, but the number of those people who shoot regularly in any kind of realistic manner, and I would consider reasonably proficient beyond basic target type shooting, I can count on one hand.

And we always blame the tool when we fall short. Isnt that a law?

Red dots arent the end all here either, just another advancement in things, and continues to be a very positive one I think. Anything for a beginner is going to be a challenge while learning and learning to shoot irons well takes a lot of time and work too, just like anything else. And the time and work put in, regardless of what, if any, the sighting system is, is what makes the better shooter. And ALL of us will benefit from that.

And I totally agree, everyone should learn and understand shooting iron sights (and shooting without sights), just like everyone should know how to drive a stick, but we know how that's gone. And I seriously doubt the red dots on handguns are going to go anywhere but forward.