Reflex Sight Suggestions

[Harleytoo]

I am considering putting a reflex style sight on my Sig P226 Tacops. I have had very little experience with these sights. So I thought I would see what the going thoughts were around them.

The 226 is primarily a home defense and target gun.

 

[FL-NC]

Those sights are kind of cool but in my experience the dot often won't be visible unless the gun is oriented more or less perfectly in relation to your target and your eye. While this may be seen as an advantage, I consider it somewhat of a disadvantage, because in a HD or other defensive situation, you may not have the time, ability, or need for "perfect", along with the requirement to power the thing on (if you even remember). I would rather just "get it done" with night sights and attached SF X200.

 

[Harleytoo]

I thought the whole idea behind reflex sights was fast acquisition. I.e. Reflexive. Why is it that it seems that everything I read makes them seem the opposite?

 

[FL-NC]

Harley- I used the doctor optics and the Jpoint, and this is what I observed. I would say the principle works better in practice when those sights are mounted on something like an M4 because the stock to shoulder and cheek to stock provide precise "index points" to facilitate the required allinement. I know guys shooting unlimited class in 3 gun and similar sports use those things a lot on handguns (I shoot tac-optics class) so maybe if you work with it enough, and really get accustomed to it, it opens a new world in speed and accuracy. As for me, I'll stick with my original statement regarding the uncertainty of a gunfight and the requirement to turn it on. Assailants usually don't say "shooter ready" before starting the attack.

 

[Skribs]

My understanding of reflex sights is that they are designed so you don't need perfect alignment for them to function. Plus, many of the reflex sights are always on, so you don't need to worry about turning them on.

1) A reflex sight, holo sight, or red dot sight all work on the presumption that you don't have to be in direct alignment with the sight to the target in order to hit what you're aiming at. If you're not perfectly aligned, the dot's location inside the scope will change - but the dot will still be between you and your target. As long as you can see the dot, you can hit the target.

Personally I haven't tried it on a pistol, but I can't see how it would be harder to pick up on a reflex sight than it is on irons.

2) Trijicon RMR and Burris Fastfire can last over a year. Leupold Deltapoint I believe about 4 months in always on. There are also reflex sights that use tritium and fiber optics, which means no need for batteries (just replace the tritium lamp every 15 years or so). Always-on optics are great for a self defense gun.

 

[Edcnh]

I have a Glock 17 which I use for my HD gun. I recently put a set of Trijicon night sights on it. What a difference in the dark! Also the white "outline" dots surrounding the tritium inserts work well in daylight.

 

[Skribs]

Personally I don't see the advantage of night sights (even though my XDm40C and M&P9C have them). If it's dark enough to where you need them, you can't really see your target.

If you have a flashlight on your target that does not hit your sights, they will be too dim to compare to the light and all you will see is the black outline of the irons.

If you have a flashlight on your target that does hit your sights, you will see the white dots clearly and have no need for the tritium.

I guess they're nice for dim light shooting, but I'm not sold on night sights anymore.

 

[tarosean]

Leupold Deltapoint I believe about 4 months in always on

DP has a motion sensor so it turns on when moved.

I have a DP Pro mounted to a G34 that I built for competition.

I will say if you are going to do it, you have to train extensively with the system. As it is very foreign to everything you are used too. Tons of dry fire to be able to pick up the dot every single time. Depending on your mount the gun will sit a hair lower than your used to in the draw stroke.

Its awesome on long shots 25+yrds but up close I am still faster with irons (-7yrds). (likely still a training/adaption issue for me.)

So I thought I would see what the going thoughts were around them.

Stick with Trijicon or Leupold.. they are the only ones proven over time to take a beating slide mounted..

 

[Harleytoo]

Night sites, for me, have been a must have. In my home often if someone were to break in they would typically be in silhouette when they came down my hall or in the places where I would plan to engage an intruder. Thus, the night sites would pick up very well against the dark form.

In any other lighting condition they are simply either a non issue or gravy.

Tarosean, you make a great point. Regardless of the system it will require training. I have never been a big fan of a laser point but that may be a better option for me.

Mainly, as I get older and find iron sights harder to pick up I am looking for something that will allow me to acquire quickly and accurately.

 

[yar]

I shoot a red dot sight on Glock handguns for competition. The two I prefer are the Doctor3 and the Trijicon RMR02. I prefer the red dot is buried in the slide meaning the slide is cut so the red dot sits as low as possible. The goal is to get the dot in the same place you would look for your iron sights. This was you use the same index and muscle memory for both. This is possible for the Glock not sure about the Sig. Shooting a red dot gun will teach you a lot about grip pressure and how your gun moves in recoil. When you shoot a red dot gun you will see more as you can actually track what the red dot does a lot easier than a front sight. If you grip the gun too hard or too soft the dot will either wiggle side to side or leave the lens. You will subconsciously adjust your grip pressure until the dot is tracking more or less up and down. Your eyes will become accustomed to seeing more of what the gun does and you will learn to shoot sight picture 2 which means hard target focus soft sight focus which is great for accurate speed shooting. When you do back to iron sights all this will transfer over making you a better iron sight shooter as well.

Some of these options such a dovetail mounts I don't care for. They are flimsy and place the dot unnaturally high above bore. The muscle memory you develop will not naturally cross over.

I prefer the Trijicon RMR because it is the sturdiest design. The double hump top prevents the lens from cracking if the gun is dropped and lands at 12:00. The doctor I like because it has the cleanest roundest dot.

 

[FL-NC]

Like I said, all my experience was with Dr. optics and j-point, and I didn't care for them. We do have some RMR at work but I never messed with them.

 

[yar]

Being able to find the dot is largely muscle memory. It certainly helps if the dot is mounted low on the pistol and you can use the same muscle memory and index you have developed from your iron sight usage. Then it becomes almost instinctive.

Regarding it's application on defensive guns I think when done properly and with practice it is a multiplier especially in low light situations. There are several solutions to add back up iron sights to work in conjunction with your dot.

I myself since I shoot most weekends for many years with a dot it naturally made sense for me to put one on my carry gun.



Each individual will have to make their own determination of what will work for them and this was a easy choice for me.

 

[chicharrones]

I guess they're nice for dim light shooting, but I'm not sold on night sights anymore.

I like just the front sight with a tritium vial. I can't focus on handgun sights anymore, and dim light just makes it worse. At least with a front tritium sight, I can pick up muzzle direction a bit easier.

I'm referring to defensive handguns, of course.

 

[chicharrones]

Regarding red dots on handguns, I haven't had experience with the tiny dovetail mount types yet. I know I'm not fast at all with the tube type red dot, but it does help me with my aim.

 

[Pushrod]

I use a meprolite-m21 and have generally been happy with it. Good, fast target acquisition. The only con I have found (and it's a big negative and this applies to most reflex sights) is that the reticle washes out when you are shooting from a darkened area to a bright area (such as from a darkened room looking out into bright sunshine). The only ones that won't wash out are the ones with an etched reticle.

 

[DIY-Pete]

I run a Trijicon RMR02 on my FNS-9 for my carry rig. I had the slide milled and had suppressor sights installed. I press out look for my front sight and the dot appears in my field of vision (co-witness). If I didn't have it set up to co-witness with the iron sights I am sure I would lose some of the speed in finding the dot.

The dot helped me with both speed and accuracy over iron sights. With this setup if the battery ever dies it's not that big of a deal because the iron sights are still on the gun. I would never carry a gun without BUIS.

However the biggest advantage IMHO is the feedback I get about my trigger control. If I jerk the trigger I can see the dot move before the gun goes bang. Dry fire practice is also much more informative.

Pete

 

[tarosean]

meprolite-m21

You have that on a handgun?
The wash out you describe is a problem of fiberoptic lighted sights. Not electronic ones.

 

[yar]

No I believe Pushrod is correct with some reflex sights washing out if you shoot from a dark area into a lighted area. The reflex sights with a light sensing diode will dim the dot in a low light environment to keep the dot from blooming. If your shooting into a lighted area it can be hard to see the dot but it should still visible. It depends a lot on the size dot you have. A 2 moa dot good luck. a 6 or 8 moa dot you should still be fine.

With night sights the use of a powerful handheld flashlight or a powerful weaponlight can also make the night sight bloom. I shoot a lot of night matches and it can be a problem. The local LEO's had problems hitting 25 yard plates because their front sights bloomed so much that it obscured the target. What I found works best if you have a flashlight or weapon light is actually fiber optic sights. There is enough spill over light to power the fiber optic. It work really well. On my defensive iron sighted pistols I prefer fiber optic because I always have both a weapon light on them for target identification. I can make good hits with this combo.



If you really want to rock in the low light I highly recommend the green lasers like on the viridians. It might as well be a light saber, it's a continuous green beam in low light. The red lasers you need a backstop to see the laser dot. Not as usable in my opinion.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

With a reflex sight, unless the dot is already in the field of view, you have no visual indication of how to align the gun to put the dot in the field of view. So you must practice a lot, so that muscle memory allows you to point the gun close enough to put the dot in the field of view in the first place.

With conventional sights, you can see the sights and visually line them up, and then line up the target. Muscle memory helps for speed, but is not absolutely necessary.

Andy

 

[basicblur]

If you really want to rock in the low light I highly recommend the green lasers like on the viridians. It might as well be a light saber, it's a continuous green beam in low light.

Well, you know the old saying...tracers work in both directions...

Fer myself, I'm still plugging along with red lasers - less obvious (to everyone else) and they're for low light / night use.

If I have the ambient light, I'm sticking with ye olde iron sights.

 

[basicblur]

I have two identical SIG 1911 22's, one of which has a Burris Fastfire III which is dovetail mounted.

I wanted to see what all the hoopla was about red dots on pistols.

Fun to play with, and if that's all you're using you should develop muscle memory for it, but I (and everybody I've let play with it) can't find the red dot first try. They have to angle the gun down slightly more than normal in order to pick up the dot.

For now, I'm sticking with iron / Trijicon night sights and an LED white light.

 

[Pushrod]

You have that on a handgun?
The wash out you describe is a problem of fiberoptic lighted sights. Not electronic ones.

No, the meprolites are on two of my rifles. I only use tritium night sights on my handguns.

 

[Harleytoo]

I truly appreciate all the feedback on this. What you guys are saying is consistent with what I have experienced when trying them out. Since the majority of my guns will remain iron sights, I may just opt for a laser on the 226 to give it a try. I do like the green beam over the red dot laser, but that is personal preference.

Again, very appreciated.

 

[DIY-Pete]

I truly appreciate all the feedback on this. What you guys are saying is consistent with what I have experienced when trying them out. Since the majority of my guns will remain iron sights, I may just opt for a laser on the 226 to give it a try. I do like the green beam over the red dot laser, but that is personal preference.

Again, very appreciated.

You need to try a gun that has the iron sights co-witnessed with the red dot. That really is the best set up IMHO.

Pete

 

[Zerodefect]

It has to be low to get good ac. So I like them best on Glocks which have a slide top that sits very low in the hand.

The Bowie Tactical cut Glocks noticeably work better than the taller MOS Glocks.

I prefer the Trijicon RDS's. On the draw I chase after my iron sights, if my eye finds the red dot first, so be it.