reload presses

[The Bushmaster]

SixGun...I believe I said that. Didn't I?? I doubt, very highly, that I would replace me LEE with a Dillon mostly because they are too heavely advertized and I know there are better presses to meet my needs out there. You are right...Most misstakes are man made...But the Dillon contributes to the problem...If nothing more then to be too automatic and causing complacency...

 

[trickyasafox]

i've always been too paranoid not to clear the deck if i have to stop for something. its not like its hard to get in those extra 3 pulls in my case. i just dont like leaving casings unfinished if i walk away

 

[Uncle Don]

To be honest, if you learned on a Lee and you really loved re-loading like I do, you would have replaced it too

Nope - people who know how it's supposed to be done realize that you don't have to have over-engineered and less feature equipped equipment at a higher price to do the job.

 

[Six-Gun]

But the Dillon contributes to the problem...If nothing more then to be too automatic and causing complacency...

If there is a problem with Dillon presses in general, I believe this is the most accurate assesment.

People get lazy when the machine is doing 80% of the work, and having a press do all but put the bullet in the case and pull the handle definately contributes to this.

Then again, it's the user's responsibility to make sure things don't become too routine.

 

[redneck2]

Jeez...

I guess the factory boys are in trouble...

People get lazy when the machine is doing 80% of the work, and having a press do all but put the bullet in the case and pull the handle definately contributes to this.

Do you think the guys at Federal, Winchester, and Remington sit down and load one case at a time on hand presses???

There's a shop not too far from me that does commercial reloading. Got news for ya cowboy, but they don't load one at a time. The automatic machine is running so fast you can't see the individual rounds reload. Precision Cartridge, Hobart, IN. If you want to watch 'em run sometime, I'll give you directions to get there.

The more I'm glad that I don't have one. I have sat alongside people at the range who load on a Dillon and all I hear is constant complaints of ammunition problems like; bullets seated improperly, primers not seated properly, failure to go bang for one reason or another or why can't I hit the target.

I have a REAL hard time believing that anyone could have that much trouble with a Dillon (or any other quality press) unless they're an idiot. Something like 98% of the competitors in organized pistol competitions use Dillon. I'm thinkin' theirs "go bang" every time.

Make you a deal. We'll load as many as you want on my 550. You pay me $1 a round for every one that works. I'll give you $50 for every one that doesn't. By the end of the day, you'll be broke.

As for accuracy, one of my best friends shoots High Master at Perry. He loads on a 550. If you'd like to shoot against him (bring money) he'd be happy to accept.

I really don't care if you like RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Dillon. Single stage, progressive, turret. Quality (or lack thereof) is more a function of operator skill (or lack thereof) than product quality

 

[Deavis]

They are most likely relying on the "if the first round came out right, they all will" principle. This is simply not the case

I'm sorry, but I believe it is the case that if the first round comes out properly then the rest of them will too if your press is properly setup. If I set my press up correctly then the first and last round, whether it be 100 or 100,000 rounds later, will be identical within the variance for the press and the components I use. It is that simple for a well made press, such as a Dillon or RCBS.

There is no consumable portion of the press that would lead to changes in the process. The bullet seating depth will not change over time magically and the primer set depth stop can't just become shorter all of a sudden. The 80% that the Dillon press does will be replicated perfectly each and every time because the press is incapable of making a mistake. You've got a 650XL, try it out sometime. Load 1000 rounds and I bet you can't tell the difference in a population of 25 from the first 100 and the last 100 if you have setup the press properly and done your job correctly.

Redneck2 is exactly right, commercial loaders don't check every round because they don't have to. They load on reliable well made machines that do not fail and do not introduce uncontrollable error into the loading process. Load on a flimsy poorly designed press mounted on a crummy table and you will get poor results.

Didn't we hash through this one before

 

[Travis Two]

A poor workman blames his tools. That said I'm no fan of Lee equipment but I have some Lee items that have worked well for me in very specfic applications. I recently had a friend come over with a Lee turret press that I did not care for much but helped him load his ammo on it. With care it loaded the ammo just fine. Some people can't handle a screwdriver properly and should'nt load anything on any type of equipment. Others could build a match gun with a hammer and file if they had too. Like I said it all depends.

 

[Six-Gun]

Do you think the guys at Federal, Winchester, and Remington sit down and load one case at a time on hand presses??? There's a shop not too far from me that does commercial reloading. Got news for ya cowboy, but they don't load one at a time. The automatic machine is running so fast you can't see the individual rounds reload. Precision Cartridge, Hobart, IN. If you want to watch 'em run sometime, I'll give you directions to get there.

Yeah, well I got news for you, too:

-They also aren't limited to 100 primers at a time, using a flip tray to arrange them, and using a little aluminum tube with a plastic tip to pick them all up.

-They don't typically stop the whole reloading mill when the wife calls, kids are crying, phone rings, or other work tells them that they need to drop what they are doing to come in immediately.

-My bare press, without anything but the press itself cost me a little over $400. The factory spec machines they are using likely cost $1,000,000+ per unit - that's a wild guess, but I bet it ain't too far off, if not a good bit shy of the real number. Expecting a human (performing refilling, production, and quality control with his $50-$1000 press and equipment) to do what a mass production, precision engineered machine can do is ridiculous, at best.

EDIT: for grammar/spelling

 

[The Bushmaster]

Redneck2...I am not producing ammunition for the public and besides the various munitions companies DO have a QA program in place to protect their product. And in case you didn't know. They goof up every so often as I have gotten a .45ACP round that went through my chronograph at well over 1200fps when it was supposed to be at 900fps (scared the snot out of me). I, on the other hand, have not had that particular problem. I will admit that I haven't loaded as many as Remington has. I'm a handloader and must pay particular attention to what I am doing. I am the Quality Assurence officer in my company of ONE. By The Way Redneck2...Keep your money...I don't want it...

"A poor workman blames his tool." And most poor workmen have cheap tools too. Say...Do you buy Craftsman tools???

Darn it Deavis... I thought we hashed this once before. And I thought we were getting along so well, too. You set it up and as time and use goes by it will go out of spec. That's inevitable...That's why manufacturing companies retool up once a week or so.

 

[redneck2]

Fair enough...

that's my point...

the Dillon vs Hornady vs Lyman vs RCBS gets a little stupid. I've only used RCBS, Hornady, and Dillon. Am I going to get into a fist-fight because someone likes Hornady and I started with Dillon? Don't think so.

IMO any of these will turn out first rate ammo and any of them can turn out crap if some chimp is operating them that is less than diligent.

The whole thing about factory ammo is, IF if you have the correct equipment and IF it's set up correctly, you can turn out as much as you want. You don't have to baby sit every single round and massage it to life. Factories turn out tens of thousands of rounds an hour, and some of it is exceptional.

If you're a benchrest shooter and need the extra .005", knock yourself out. As for me, I just want to produce acceptable ammo and go shoot. YMMV

 

[TooTaxed]

Dillon V. Hornady L&L...I've used both (kind friends!) as research to what I'd buy. Hornady won. Major reasons: Hornady's more modern drum powder measure...much quicker to change charges than the Dillon (one of my buddies actually bought 3 of those $60 powder measures so he wouldn't have the bother!). Hornady is cheaper to buy in the first place ($300 Midway) and FAR cheaper to add more calibers! Dillon has been at the top of the heap for a generation...but now could use some modernizing to match the ease of use of competitors....

 

[M-Rex]

My equipment is RCBS, circa mid-'70's. I use an RCBS Jr. Press. I plan on upgrading soon. I think any of the major name presses/accessories will do fine. I think most of it comes down to Chevy/Ford/Dodge type preferences.

 

[Jet22]

Changing powder charges...

quicker to change charges

Man, that says it all. If you are experimenting with a bunch of different powders, bullets, and charges, the progressives are a pain in the butt. This is where the plain old Rockchucker (or something like it) is THE press to use (and recommend).

I have two Dillon RL1000s (one in 45ACP and one in 223) and they are great to load on, but I seldom change the powder charge let alone anything else. I have three Stars with indexers and case feeders and ditto; seldom change. I use five RCBS Piggybacks which allow a little more experimentation with different pistol and short rifle rounds. It is much easier to adjust the powder charge with the drum type powder measures on the Piggybacks. Change the charge, run what I need, change again...but I seldom change the calibers. I even have charge bars with bushings for the Stars but you still have to empty the measure or take it off the press to change the bushing...what a pain!! The Dillons charge bars are adjustable but it still takes time to get the right charge weight. I wouldn't want to be loading 5 rounds each of a bunch of different bullet and powder types on a Dillon!!

What type of press do I load the most different rounds on?? You guessed it, plain old single stage. It works best for experimenting with different loads. Also needed for case forming wildcats, etc. For most rifles I never load more than 50-100 rounds at one time anyway. I can load 50-100 rounds in less time on a single stage than it takes me to change over a Dillon...not to mention changing it back again. And if I want to change the charge every 5 rounds?? And if I want the charges to be within .1 grain??? And I want to do this with 5 different bullets????

I am in the process of setting up a Hornady progressive for the rifles I shoot most. Instead of a powder measure I am putting a charge die with a funnel at that station (try getting 72 grains of 4350 to .1 grain with your progressive powder measure). I just bought an RCBS Chargemaster powder dispenser and electronic scale so I can weigh every charge and still have speed enough to load on a progressive. I have used a Lyman Autoscale powder dispenser/scale in the past and it can weigh out charges to one tenth of a grain in less time than I can seat bullets but it dosen't like ball powders. I hope the RCBS is as fast because I use a lot of ball powders. The Hornady is as easy to set up as a single stage and most of my loading on it will be done on the same head size so I won't need to change shell plates often and will never change the primer size. I will be able to change powder charges on the fly. I will not use a case feeder so that is one less thing to adjust. Hope to have the best of both worlds.

I love all my progressive presses and wouldn't give up any of them (and want more). I can load a ton of good ammo in a short time on any of them....but I still will do a lot of loading on the old Rockchucker and T-mag!!

 

[Deavis]

Darn it Deavis... I thought we hashed this once before. And I thought we were getting along so well, too. You set it up and as time and use goes by it will go out of spec. That's inevitable...That's why manufacturing companies retool up once a week or so.

Yeah, I know Then again, you are torquing all the bolts to the exact specification, right? Doesn't a Lee come with a torque chart?

 

[The Bushmaster]

Unfortunately no Lee doesn't come with a torque chart, but I have a calibrated elbow, though

 

[Joemidd]

Some people choose to drink just one flavor of Kool-aid. On my bench I have all colors. Rcbs green, Redding green, Lyman orange and black, Hornady red, and Mec red. But no dillon blue . I was considering a lock and load AP, 550 or 650 but all of the "red" vs "Blue" Stuff leaves me stuck on a rockchucker and a Lyman turret. maybe if I list what I load for someone could suggest a progressive.

I now load on a single stage
223
22-250
243
25-06
30-06
300wsm
450 marlin
460S&W comming soon (hope it is here tommrow)

When I get a progressive I would like to use it for
223
45acp
40s&w
Maybe more if these work out
I Refuse to load auto pistol on a single stage

Most of my Rifle are bolt actions except 223 Colt HBAR and mini 14

I like the Idea of using a powder die and using the Lyman dps1200 to weigh charges. I have a uniflow for ball powders and Like to use a scale with extruded powders. I still check every charge out of the uniflow
I guss I will have to get over the checking every charge thing.

Hope y'all can help
Joe

 

[Rico567]

I have had many "flavors" on my bench in the 40 years or so I've followed this pastime: Lyman, RCBS, MEC, Lee, Dillon. All work well. Many threads I read on forums such as this reflect problems with one thing or another that aren't attributable to the color of equipment, so much as what my wife, a computer troubleshooter, calls "loose nut behind keyboard."

For instance, I was reading a thread yesterday where an individual was complaining about problems with their Dillon XL650, and yet their explanation demonstrated that they hadn't read the manual that came with the press, and so the press wasn't set up properly. First three steps in reloading: 1) get the manual, 2) open the manual, 3) actually READ the manual. Again: RTFM!

With the exception of a few cases of outright mechanical failure (in which case the company has invariably offered to replace the part or parts involved) I have never had a difficulty reloading that wasn't attributable to errors on my part.

 

[antarti]

commercial loaders don't check every round because they don't have to. They load on reliable well made machines that do not fail and do not introduce uncontrollable error into the loading process.

You aren't the only one with a commercial operation nearby. After some questions directed at the shop manager, I found out the most "important and expensive" pieces of equipment they had to be the case-checkers and final inspection machines. That wouldn't be the case (Pardon the pun) if those "reliable and well made machines" didn't in fact fail, rarely or not.

I can't speak to the progressive debate. I already catch mistakes on my SS press. A progressive might let me crank out rounds fast enough not to catch them. Since the Lee Classic Cast was mentioned, and I enjoy using one, I can wholeheartedly recommend it. Smooth, strong, and as good as anything (except the Forster Co-Ax) for less budda.