Reloading 10.4x47R Italian Vetterli

[batjka]

Gentlemen,
I just purchased a nice Russian-issued Vetterli-Vitali and would like to find out some reloading information for it.

I have ordered 40 loaded rounds from Gad's custom Cartridges and a 100 bullets.
He loads with 21gr of 2400 and runs the loaded round into the full-sizing die to squeeze down the neck, thus creating a heeled bullet.

My choices for dies are pretty limited - 4D set would run about $100 and RCBS set would run about $260. I was thinking of ordering a custom collet die set from Lee, but the biggest diameter they offer is .375, while a Vetterli bullet is .430-.410 (for the heel).

Would the 41 Swill dies work for neck sizing the cases? Would .44 Mag dies work for neck sizing the cases?

If anyone here has any experience reloading for this round, please share any and all information.

Thank you in advance.

 

[ants]

I usually buy the dies first, then I buy the rifle.
That way it's a lot easier to justify the cost of a new rifle.

I thought the Vetterli-Vitali was an Italian rifle? I didn't know they were issued in Russia.
My comment is on the heeled bullet: I would contact Lee for a custom bullet mold with the right dimensions. Although the body is .429" the heel is only .410". If you can get a sample, it shouldn't be difficult for Lee to produce a mold. That makes your die choice much easier. When the loaded round arrives, call Lee about the custom bullet mold and the custom dies. I doubt they would make a collet type neck die, but you can ask them directly.

 

[NCsmitty]

[Entire contents of post deleted at NCsmitty's request.
Johnny Guest]

/* content deleted by taliv for potential copyright infringement at NCsmitty's request */

 

[ants]

Smitty has the info.

 

[batjka]

Ants,
Vetterli-Vitali is an Italian rifle. About 400,000 of them were sent to Russia as military aid during WW1. If your rifle has a "made in Italy" stamp at the knoxform by the rear sight, as well as cyrillic characters on the underside of the stock that means that your rifle has been in front-line use in Russia as well as in Spanish Civil War. Stalin sent these rifles to Spain to aid the Republican forces in the 30's. So they have a fascinating history.

I called Lee, and they don't make the dies with bullet diameters larger than .375. I really don't want to spend over $100 for a die set. Do you think .44 Mag dies will work for neck sizing if I partially run the neck of the case into the die? That would be a cheap and quick option.

 

[NCsmitty]

ants,yes, I know they are different, that's why I added the info.

batjka, won't hurt anything to try the 44 dies, the bore handles .430 bullets, correct?
Perhaps a Lee crimp die in 44 to secure the bullet would work.

NCsmitty

 

[ants]

Right on, Smitty!

I suspect that the 44Mag die won't neck size the Italian case correctly.

Measure the ammo when you get it, but the outside diameter of the Italian case neck is probably 0.430 inches, right? So it seats the heeled bullet.

But the OD of a 44Mag case is 0.457 inches. So it's too big.

What's the 41 Swill? Is that the right size? Maybe you're on to something there...

If worse comes to worst, what about a 40S&W die (0.420 inches) and ream it out another 10 thousandths? That's only removing .005" of steel from each side. What about 41 Magnum? No, that's 0.435 inches.

 

[batjka]

Well, according to the drawing from the ammoguide.com posted by NCsmithy, the outside case diameter is .435 and the bullet diameter is .432. At least that's what the drawing is showing. So what would be the closest caliber? I'm going on ammoguide to search.
How is your Vetterli shooting? Any experience you'd like to share? I'm really eager to take one to the range.

 

[batjka]

One caliber that has outside diameter of .434 and head diameter of .435 would be .41AE.

I'm not too experienced in these matters, but if I run a case mouth into the .41AE die until it hits the shoulder it theoretically would form to .435.

I guess I would also have to purchase Lee Universal decapping die and Lee universal expander die so I can remove the primers and expand the mouth to accept .430 bullet.

What about running loaded cartridge into the die to squeeze down the neck? How is it going to affect the brass and is it safe?

Thank you NCsmithy and ants for your help.

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm not sure what to tell you about squeezing the case down because I don't quite understand the tapered heel deal for the bullet if the case tapers out towards the base. I would check the new case in the chamber first. The rather weird tapered case neck puzzles me. The bullet will have to be crimped I would think. Keep us posted.

NCsmitty

 

[somoss]

any luck?

i bought one of these amazing rifles about two years ago. it took me a few months and a few hundred dollars to get some reloading equipment. i did not need all of the items i bought but i really like making the custom ammo.
if you still need help in making some ammo for this thing PM me.

 

[NCsmitty]

Ammoguide locked my account for this

Just to inform all here that Ammoguide has locked my account on their site for disseminating copyrighted material here. They want me to "CEASE AND DESIST from further illegal distribution".
As much as I touted their site, I can no longer support their methods of operation. I always gave them the credit for the information before posting anything.
Not good enough.
They (Mike Haas) want me to remove all the info that I used from their site but most cannot be edited by me.


NCsmitty

 

[NCsmitty]

bump

 

[Afy]

That is wierd...
and a -1 for Ammoguide

 

[ljnowell]

Wow talk about shooting yourself in the foot. I wonder if the people that have read this thread will have a different opinion of them now? I know I do.

 

[batjka]

NCsmitty,

I'm really sorry to hear about you being locked out by the ammoguide. It is wrong on their part. I have found their website extremely helpful and I appreciate you sharing the info with us on the Vetterli subject. Is there anything I can do to help you resolve this issue?

As far as the 10.4x47R rounds, I have ordered 40 complete rounds from Gad. Haven't received them yet though, and it has been quite a while.

I have also decided on getting Lee .41 Swiss dies to reload this round. I hope they will work for neck sizing.

 

[NCsmitty]

I appreciate the thoughts guys but I apparently broke their rules and I have to resolve it. I PM'd the Moderator to get the information edited. I'm just waiting to hear back.
Ammoguide mentioned if I remove the noted info, they will review my membership status.
I just have to decide how far I will go. I'm trying to think positive.

NCsmitty

 

[taliv]

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

i am not a lawyer, but it seems clear to me,

you were not copying for any commercial gain and you posted it here for educational purposes

you only posted a small portion of the original work (assuming they have more than 3 recipes on their site)

and posting three loads had no measurable effect on the market


I've never been a fan of ammoguide, but i am surprised at their unreasonable behavior. Hope they make it up to you.