reloading for the M44

[bender]

yep... I've searched prior threads, and yes I found some useful info...

I can't hit the broad side of a barn with my new (beat up) M44. Am shooting wolf gold ammo (seems to be .3085 size). Want to buy some Lee dies, but would prefer to neck-size only.

Came across this article on surplusrifle.com, where they use a Lee collet die for .308, but use a flat washer to fool the die so that it works correctly for the slightly longer 7.62x54.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/colletswap/index.asp

My question is: If I want to use .311 or .312 bullets, will there be a problem with the .308 mandrel?

 

[dmftoy1]

You'll probably have some problems with the .308 expander. (IMHO) You can use it to your advantage if you don't have a trimmer pilot though as you can FL resize and trim using your .308 trimmer pilot and then expand it for your bullets. I've had really good luck with the Lyman 31M expander die. (here: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=199295&t=11082005 )

Today I was able to sneak out and do some more playing (second attempt) and I'm becoming convinced that the trigger is going to be the limiting factor (after my poor skills).

My next attempt will be with 18.5 and 19.5 grains of 2400 to see if it has a preference. I might also play with some Trailboss. I think resizing to .313 might help me as well.

Today with 19 grains of 2400 I had 3 shots cutting a single hole and the one that's high in the center was a called flyer. The first shot was low . .no clue if that was user error or?

All targets at 50 yards, off a bench. 37 Degree's Ambient, 10mph wind.

17 Grains 2400 under 314299 sized to .312

18 Grains 2400 under 314299 sized to .312

19 Grains 2400 under 314299 sized to .312

 

[bender]

thanks, dmf. Those groups look great.

I'm a little confused on what dies I would need in my turret press for reloading 7.62x54 with .312 bullets. If I buy the Lee 3-die set, I would have a FL sizer with a .308 expander, a seating die and a FC die. If I get the Lyman 31M die, would it go between the Lee FL die and the seater die? Or if I also get the .308 Collet die and use the "washer trick" I would put that die in the first station, then the Lyman M31, then the Lee seater, then the Lee FC?

I just slugged my son's M44, turns out to be .312 to .314 at the widest. Also just slugged my M38, which shows to be more like .310 at the widest.

If I decide to go with the Lee .308 collet neck-size die, I would keep my son's brass and mine separated.

any advice on what dies I need appreciated!

btw: I already reload for my sks and my .303, so I have bullets for those calibers, which may work ok for the mosins.

 

[dmftoy1]

I'm a little confused on what dies I would need in my turret press for reloading 7.62x54 with .312 bullets. If I buy the Lee 3-die set, I would have a FL sizer with a .308 expander, a seating die and a FC die. If I get the Lyman 31M die, would it go between the Lee FL die and the seater die? Or if I also get the .308 Collet die and use the "washer trick" I would put that die in the first station, then the Lyman M31, then the Lee seater, then the Lee FC?

I load on a single stage but I "think" what you're asking me is what order I use the dies in? If so then here goes:

1. FL Resize (I'd neck size if I had a neck sizing die for this caliber)
2. Trim/Chamfer/Debur as appropriate.
3. Use the Lyman 31M die to expand the necks for .311/.312 bullets. You won't need to screw it all the way down unless you're loading for cast boolits as you won't need the very slight "bell" for jacketed.
4. Use the Seating Die from the Lee set to seat your bullet.
5. Use the Lee Collet/Crimp die to apply the amount of crimp you like. (I use it to remove the slight belling necessary to seat cast boolits. I probably wouldn't use it for jacketed if I felt like I had reasonable neck tension.

I'd bet that you can use .312's in both your 38 and your son's 44 with good results. I'm thinking about ordering a .313 sizing die from Magma on Monday so I can start playing with bullets a little bigger. I suspect I'd get even better groups with .313's. I need to order in some of those Hornady 150's (.312) that I used in my Enfield . ..those would shoot really well too I'd think.

Good Luck!

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[bender]

ok thanks dave. Guess I'll get the Lee 3 die set and either the lyman M31 or a .303 Brit expander from Lee and replace the .308 expander the FL die comes with.

For now, I'll order some Hornady .312 150gr bullets for the M44, and I'll probably use my .303 Brit bullets (150gr .3105) for the M38.

 

[bender]

I'm having second thoughts about the Lee die set. Some people on Midway say that the FL Lee die shaves some brass off the bottom of the cases.

 

[dmftoy1]

That would be true . . .I had it do it to my new "grafs" brass. I'm hoping it's a non-issue. As you can tell I load pretty light loads . .would make me a bit more nervous if I was loading full bore loads. Let me know if you find a better set of dies. I bought the Lee's because they were cheap and I didn't want to spend too much loading for a $89 rifle.

 

[bender]

I noticed yesterday at the local Sportsmans Warehouse that the RCBS 2-die set was something like $28. May go that route. Then if I wanted, I could get the Lee FC die separately.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Some people on Midway say that the FL Lee die shaves some brass off the bottom of the cases.

I had this problem on mine. It's a combination of things, but mainly it was the polishing job on the die. The loose tolerances of the chamber (making it reliable) cause the case to swell quite a bit. This is where your collet die would come in. If you keep those brass with that gun, it'll feed just fine and you won't see much more case stretching.
If you FL resize, you'll size back to SAAMI specs and the case will stretch again to take up the excessive headspace characteristic to the gun. This will kill the brass quickly, and in the case of the die shaving the brass at the bottom of the case, kill it even faster. I had three loads on one that eventually failed. You could even see the difference by eye between the resized and the unsized. I asked Lee about it via EMail and they said to send it in, as it might have missed a final polish job on the edge of the sizing surface. It was too sharp (I could see this by eye also) and was shaving a bit off the buldge at the bottom.
I sent it in and a week later had it back, and no more shaved brass. I would keep one around for resizing any cases you'll use between guns, or for bulk-ordered once-fired (likely out of an Auto), but the collet die is an item I'm looking into, and would probably suit yourself well.

BTW, I got some decent groups at 200yds (decent for me, anyway) with my hand-loads and my 91/30. I use a .3105 174gr Hornaday on Varget. Nary a difference between hot and cold weather.

 

[bender]

thanks! Now... where's a good source of new 7.62x54 brass? Norma & Lapua are too danged expensive. Midway only sells Norma... and it's more expensive than complete, loaded factory ammo.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Excellent question. I know Winchester and S&B are both made by S&B. I've been getting it at my local store. I can't seem to find any in bulk on the net at the moment. Best bet for the moment is to go out and buy a box or two of Winchester factory, and shoot it.

 

[dmftoy1]

Graf's is the cheapest I've found for the brass. Thanks for the heads up on the Lee Die . .I'll send mine in to get it worked on.

Regards,
Dave

 

[bender]

yeah, as Fiero said about the Lee die not being polished correctly... that's what some reviewers on midway were saying also. Like Fiero, they also said they sent them in to Lee and got them fixed up.

How's the brass that Wolf Gold ammo uses? Does it reload ok? I suppose it is Prvi brass but I'm not sure.

On another note, does anyone have the new Speer #14 manual yet? I don't think the prior editions had 7.62x54 loads, I was wondering if the new edition did.

 

[dmftoy1]

Just wanted to say thanks again for telling me about the Lee Dies shaving brass being common. I sent mine in last Monday, got it back today . .not bad at all . .and they threw in a free .311 expander ball.

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[bender]

that was nice of them with the .311 expander. I asked them about their die and they told me it came with .308, and just send them $10 and they would sent me a .311 expander, which would have been more than just getting the rcbs set.

got the rcbs 2-die set, and the Lee FC to go with 'em. RCBS set came with .311 installed already, and an extra .308 one in the box.

 

[dmftoy1]

They probably felt bad that their $26 die set had shaved brass on $40 worth of brass. I won't know their service though!

I've loaded up some "experimental" rounds with Trailboss over the weekend so once the temp here goes back above 30 I'll try to get out and see how those do.

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[bender]

I've read on several other places on the web about Lee 7.62x54 dies shaving brass, and many people sending their die in. Seems like Lee would fix the problem in manufacturing.

below 30 ? brrrrr..... It's been 55 to 75 here in south central TX most of Feb.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Bender, they probably had a batch miss the final stage, and have simply been waiting for the dies to come back, rather than trying to recall a bunch of them. Ever seen a date or lot code on a die or die set? I know I haven't, so a recall would be nearly impossible without getting waaaay more than actually need fixed back.
They probably only do the 54R dies every eight months or so, as it's not a caliber that a lot of people load for. 9mm, 40, and 45ACP are likely their top sellers, so the machines crank those out constantly. Every now and then, they crank out a batch of the odd sizes and send them out. I'm sure they're planning on remedying the situation with the 54's as soon as they do the next batch. Stuff happens.

 

[bender]

I didn't mean a "recall"... I meant that they should look into why so many didn't get polished correctly...

I just completed my first 7.62x54 reloads. Will hit the range sunday morning.
for the M44, I used Hornady .312 150gr bullets over 40gr Vihta N-135, and some over 41.7gr IMR 4895. COL 2.86".

For the M38, I used Winchester 123gr bullets (.3095) over 41.2gr Vihta N-135 and some over 44.1gr IMR 4895. COL 2.771".

can't wait to try them out. Seem kind of hard to chamber, but then so is the factory Wolf Gold.