Reloading die questions

[capreppy]

1) FL sizing dies with regards to the neck. They size smaller than needed and then the expander ball opens it up on the way out. Could you take out expander ball, FL size and then open up using say a Sinclair expander mandrel? I realize this is slower, BUT if time wasn't an issue is this an a good way to FL size brass?

2) Lee collet neck sizing die. The mandrel is set to a specific ID and the brass is squeezed into the mandrel by the collets. For 260 Rem, what is that ID? I know you can call Lee up and get different mandrels, what would be a good ID for .002 neck tension out of a bolt gun.

 

[rcmodel]

Can't tell you without knowing the neck thickness of your brass?

Mandrels don't work all the great unless you neck turn or neck ream all the brass so it is all the exact same neck thickness.

The traditional old expander ball doesn't care about case neck thickness, because it is doing it after the neck is out of the sizing portion of the die.

Their would be no advantage I can think of to sizing without the expander, and then driving what is basically a punch in every case mouth to do what you could have done in one step with a standard sizing die with the expander in place.

rc

 

[capreppy]

But wouldn't the expander mandrel just open it up to a specific ID regardless of neck thickness? The reason I am asking is an expander mandrel versus the expander ball I would think would require less force. Also it wouldn't be "pulling" on the neck in the way out.

 

[Otto]

The advantage with the collet die is that it reduces run out. If you care at all about about accuracy, you should throw the expander in the trash.

 

[rcmodel]

It would after it is out of the die.
It can't while it is in the die.

But there is nothing wrong with the expander "pulling" out of the case.
Thats the way 99.9% of the ammo loaded is loaded.

It is more likely to result in a straight case neck then pounding a mandrel in the case after it is out of the die.

It is "pulling" in an exact stright line with the case centerline.
Something that can't be accomplished driving something in from the front end.

Just lube the necks slightly with a bore brush rolled on a lube pad and gofer it.

If you care at all about about accuracy, you should throw the expander in the trash.

I can't agree with that. I load ammo capable of 1/2 MOA or better with conventional reloading dies and have been for 50 years.

Even if I could get better accuracy with a mandrel die, I can't shoot well enough to tell it.

rc

 

[243winxb]

1. Working the brass that much is never a good thing. 2. A mandrel about .003" smaller then bullet diameter, brass has some spring back. You should look at bushing dies.

 

[Walkalong]

Mandrels work well, and IMO are more likely to leave necks straight than expanders. I used mandrels to bring the neck ID up to match the turning mandrel on my K&M neck turner. No, the mandrel doesn't really care about particular neck thickness, as long as it is fairly consistent in your batch of brass. A bushing die could do what you want, even if you wanted to use a slightly smaller than needed bushing and finish with the mandrel.

I would say most of the trouble caused by expanders is not lubing properly so they drag on the necks badly.

 

[capreppy]

Redding has a carbide sizing button. I use one in my Redding 223 and it is fairly smooth even without lube (tried with and without). Does this really help with the "pulling"?

 

[Walkalong]

I use the Redding carbide expander on several dies, Redding and RCBS. They certainly help. I still like to roll a brush over the lube pad and run it through the necks. It doesn't take much. Roll it, lube a few necks, roll it,......

For hunting ammo I could care less about concentrically if the load shoots satisfactorily for me. As long as the round doesn't wobble anyway.

 

[capreppy]

I only have a few hundred to do. I'll get my lube pad out.

I still have my question regarding the Lee mandrel in the Collet Neck Sizer.

 

[Ifishsum]

Something else to consider - the expander ball is usually shaped and polished, and maybe even a harder steel than a typical mandrel, since it is purposely made to be drawn through the case. Either way you're sizing the neck and then expanding it back, but the mandrel would have a lot more bearing surface than the expander which would make it more difficult IMO - and not really accomplish anything.

If you're trying to work the neck as little as possible and size it exactly to your chamber, bushing dies are the way to do that. Accuracy wise, I think you'd also need a match chamber and also be using match grade brass to reap any significant benefit from that (or at least be turning your case necks)

 

[Walkalong]

I think Lee will supply a different diameter mandrel. Call them and see.

 

[243winxb]

Lee collet neck sizing die

I dont want my brass smashed against the mandrel of the Lee collet neck sizing die. This is why i never bought one. To me smashing = thinning of the necks=loose bullets, soon or later. Am i wrong?? I read all of Lee info on it. Seem like you really have to know what 25 lbs pressure on the press feels like. http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/List/Index/13/product-support

Collet die pressure exertion
Posted by on 19 October 2011 02:29 PM
All of the sizing in the Collet die takes place at the very end of the stroke, when the ram/shell holder appears to bottom out against the base of the die. If you lean into the handle at this point, you will force the collet up into the die body, and cause the collet to squeeze the case neck down against the mandrel (the very end of which pops out the spent primer). About 25 lbs. of force is sufficient to resize most cases. If you are sitting in front of your press, just leaning your upper body weight into the lever is about right.

A good way to determine how much is necessary is to start the case into the die and feel the die remove the primer. Start using pressure and work up to what you think is about 25 lbs. Remove the case from the die and attempt to place the intended bullet in the case neck. If there is little or no resistance, repeat the process with slightly more pressure. When you have reached a point where there are vertical striation marks on the outside of the case neck or the intended bullet does not fit easily into the case neck, the correct amount of pressure has been achieved.

And

Collet Dies on Rockchucker Press
Posted by on 19 October 2011 02:18 PM
If you are using the Collet die in an RCBS Rockchucker press, or a similar design that toggles over center at the top of the (ram) stroke, this applies far greater force than is necessary to resize just the neck of the case, and can damage the die or collapse the case. To correct this situation, adjust the die two full turns into the press after the die contacts the shell holder with the ram at the top of its stroke, rather than one as in the instructions. This will stop the press before it gets to the toggle over point. With a press without having an over center feature, apply about 25 lbs. of pressure to the handle once it bottoms out to resize the case. On most presses, this translates to over 600 lbs of pressure on the ram.

The collet might be stuck in the closed position from closing the die without a case inside. Remove the cap from the top of the Collet die and push the mandrel, collet sleeve and collet out through the top of the die. Open the collet back up with a tapered punch or Phillips screwdriver.

If this occurs with a full length sizing die, the decapper/expander is out of adjustment. The decapper/expander should be flush with the top of the decapper clamp. If it protrudes more than 1/4 inch, the die will be resizing the inside and outside diameter of the case neck at the same time, resulting in a collapsed case shoulder.

 

[homatok]

To lube the inside of case necks, I dip about every third or forth case neck (or whenever I feel a bit of drag) in a small can of powdered Graphite. The can I have holds no more than 2 oz of powder and I have been using it for at least twenty years. Just dip the case neck, tap it on the side of the can and size.

 

[243winxb]

From Mr. Lee

Collet Mandrel
Posted by on 19 October 2011 02:18 PM
The Mandrels for the Collet Dies are made to .002" to .003" under nominal bullet diameter as there is about .001" to .002" of spring back. When the case neck is finished being sized, we want the case neck to be .001" under nominal bullet diameter.

 

[rsrocket1]

243, I think you are wrong. "smashing" the neck against the collar is simply "squeezing" the neck back a couple of mils and 25 pounds of force on the handle of a press is really not that much. In fact the force is a lot less than the act of pulling the sizing mandrel out of a FL sized case. I have yet to see the length of a neck stretch due to neck sizing using the Lee collet sizing die.

The squeezing is actuated by the die pressing against the shellplate so case length is not critical, only the approximate length between the neck and the bottom of the case. That's why test chambering fired rounds or headspace checking is important. You want to know if you need to bump the shoulder back because running cases through this die won't let you know if your shoulder should be bumped back or if the case needs trimming.

The mandrel on my .308 collet die is 0.3050" and the ID of a sized neck is 0.3055", but that may vary due to springback of older cases. On my .223 die, the mandrel is 0.2210" and a sized neck measures out to 0.2215". This is using a Mituyo digital caliper that is only precise to 1/2 a mil so the last half digit is questionable.

Hope that answers your question capreppy.

 

[capreppy]

243, I think you are wrong. "smashing" the neck against the collar is simply "squeezing" the neck back a couple of mils and 25 pounds of force on the handle of a press is really not that much. In fact the force is a lot less than the act of pulling the sizing mandrel out of a FL sized case. I have yet to see the length of a neck stretch due to neck sizing using the Lee collet sizing die.

The squeezing is actuated by the die pressing against the shellplate so case length is not critical, only the approximate length between the neck and the bottom of the case. That's why test chambering fired rounds or headspace checking is important. You want to know if you need to bump the shoulder back because running cases through this die won't let you know if your shoulder should be bumped back or if the case needs trimming.

The mandrel on my .308 collet die is 0.3050" and the ID of a sized neck is 0.3055", but that may vary due to springback of older cases. On my .223 die, the mandrel is 0.2210" and a sized neck measures out to 0.2215". This is using a Mituyo digital caliper that is only precise to 1/2 a mil so the last half digit is questionable.

Hope that answers your question capreppy.

Answered my question. I'll stick with what I got initially and will see if I need to change it.

 

[ranger335v]

"I dont want my brass smashed against the mandrel of the Lee collet neck sizing die. This is why i never bought one. To me smashing = thinning of the necks=loose bullets, soon or later. Am i wrong??"

Yes.

Neither Lee's collet die nor most presses can take anywhere near the 65K psi + pressure needed to accomplish cold flowing of brass so neck thickness isn't affected at all.

There is no sliding contact between the case and Lee's collet and mandrel so there is no need to lube nor does the 'soft' steel mandrel wear down. Since necks are pressed full length against the mandrel without meaningful movement there is no tendency for necks to 'tilt' during expander extraction - a straighter neck is a good thing.

The collet pushes the neck hard against the mandrel and normal springback lets it springback a bit (LOL), and how much back varies by how hard the neck's brass alloy is so the actual diameter of the mandrel isn't all that critical. What we want to end up with is about a thou of what's (misscalled) "neck tension", in reality it's only an interference fit. The exessively smaller neck diameters that are so popular for 'higher bullet grip' makes seating effort and bullet runout greater but it doesn't do a thing for actual bullet grip.

I love how smooth after market carbide expander balls extract but I don't love the amount of neck runout they often produce. I suspect that's why die makers don't put them in to start with but they will sure sell 'em to anyone willing to pay the high costs!

 

[higgite]

Ranger, when you say "I love how smooth after market carbide expander balls extract but I don't love the amount of neck runout they often produce", do you mean runout produced by carbide expander balls as opposed to standard expander balls, or do you mean runout produced by expander balls in general? I thought carbide expanders were touted to cause less neck runout than standard ones. Is that a myth?

 

[gamestalker]

I have to agree with RC on this. Once the brass is out of the die you would have an unsupported piece of brass to work with. And when the press is used with the expander, a light lube on the inside of the neck and your not going to have necks getting stretched to any effect on accuracy.

I know myself and others who consistently get 1/2" MOA using the die and press method? But what ever floats your boat, as this is a hobby that allows us to enjoy it to it's full potential.

GS

 

[ranger335v]

"Ranger, when you say "I love how smooth after market carbide expander balls extract but I don't love the amount of neck runout they often produce", do you mean runout produced by carbide expander balls as opposed to standard expander balls, or do you mean runout produced by expander balls in general?"

IME, expander balls don't materially stretch cases if the neck's insides are lubed or not but the limited contact on the inner wall means any thin or weak point in the neck will easily give way to the stress of expanding. The less guiding contact there is between the expander and neck surfaces the more pronounced the expander's drift to the weak point becomes and that 'bends' necks.

Normal steel expander balls have a very short contact surface but the after market carbide balls I bought are even shorter and very loosely held so the drifting/bending neck effect was even greater than usual. How great that effect is would vary by the contact length of your specific steel expander vs. the carbide expander and, to some degree, the consistancy of the neck metal too. Some necks expand straight while some just don't but most do better if we work 'em right. All meaning I won't say the problem, such as it is, is specifically linked to steel vs. carbide, it's more about the expander's design.

Lee's excellant rifle expander is quite long so, once it starts into the neck hole, the place it's established will help keep the rest of the expander centered on that place; it may not be perfect but it's a much better expander design than the common ball types, IMHO!

I've read many web posts of people agonizing over how to adjust the decap pin/expander ball centered in the die to better maintain straight necks. Sounds plausible but in my experiments that didn't make a bit of difference. No case is firmly held during expander extraction and the expander rods themselves are sufficently flexable that the only thing really bending necks during expansion is how the ball moves through the neck.

No seater can make straight ammo in bent necks. My present solution for straighter necks are home-made 'body' dies and Lee Collet Neck sizers. Lee's neck sizer mandrel remains centered and the necks are formed to it so the average neck runout is lower than anything else I've ever tried, including bushing dies. When I want to FL size I just run 'em through the body die first.