Reloading for Winchester 1873

[mleeber]

I am in search of some help. I have an original Winchester Model 1873 in 38-40 caliber that I am finally ready to load for. I am not new to reloading but I am new to old firearms. This gun is in good shape but it is 130 years old. Will today's modern powders be more or less corrosive than the blackpowder used in the late 1800s and early 1900s? What about the primers? I am in need of some guidance in choosing reloading components that will not damage the gun. I have some lead bullets from Tennesse Valley, some new brass, and need to choose powder and primers. I will be using a turret press, Lee dies, and will be weighting each charge on a Pact scale. Velocity is not critical, I doubt I will ever hunt with this gun, but it would be nice if the loads were capable of bringing down deer size game out to 100 yards or so.

Any guidance that you guys can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Mark

 

[Jim Watson]

No doubt somebody will come along and tell you not to load for a '73 Winchester. All I can say is that I see a fair number of them being shot in CAS and they seem to hold up ok as long as they are not pushed beyond the loads they were made for.

Smokeless powder and styphnate primers are not corrosive at all, and will be kinder to an old gun than black and chlorate if you keep the loads within reason. Use large rifle primers of your usual brand. Ken Waters shows loads for .38-40 Group I rifles including Winchester 1873 as follows.

All with a 180 grain cast bullet
8 gr Unique = 1360 fps
9 gr Herco = 1362 fps
15 gr SR 4759 = 1235 fps
16 gr 2400 = 1402 fps
17 gr 4227 = 1404 fps

You should consider these maximum loads, he was shooting them in real guns in 1975. You can back off and still be at factory equivalent of 1200 fps.

Cowboy loads are lighter. Hodgdon has some data at
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/spc3840.php
I think those are revolver velocities and a rifle will run about 150 fps faster.

 

[mleeber]

Jim,

Thanks for the info! My reloading manuals don't have any Rifle data for the 38-40 so I appreciate the info. I need to invest in a few more reloading manuals anyway.

This gun is quite heavy by today's standards. The bore looks good but the outside finish is what you would expect after 130 years or so. Coincidentally I was at a gun show weekned before last and there was a guy wandering around with an 1873 that was amazing. It had a mirror blue finish and all sorts of engraving. The receiver had that fire forged color gradient as well. Beautiful gun! I tried to find out more but the people were 10 deep around him. Someone said the gun was worth $60K easy maybe $100K at auction. Wish I had pictures of it!

 

[Cortland]

I have an original 1874 as well (mine was made in 1886). I shoot it very rarely, but when I do I load with good old fashioned blackpowder. These guns weren't designed for nitro, and I've heard people say that even though certain smokeless loads may develop maximum pressures less than blackpowder, the pressure curve and duration of pressure is different. This may very well be a load of bull, of course.

If I want to shoot smokeless, I can buy a modern reproduction made for smokeless. At 120 years old I don't expect my '74 to do anything more than sit on the mantle and look nice.

 

[Bad Flynch]

The old high-velocity rifle load has been dropped by the loading companies, with good reason. Stick to revolver loads as they will develop higher velocity in a rifle, anyway.

The barrel steel in your original was not made for jacketed bullets and will wear prematurely if they are used. Stick to lead.

Modern low pressure smokeless loads are just fine. Black Powder, is the ultimate.

Remember, the toggle-link action was never meant to handle pressure above that of black powder, so keep it down.

 

[mleeber]

I guess I will try both, a low pressure smokeless load and a black powder load. Can you guy reccomend a good book on reloading for black powder? What about primers? Do you just use standard primers (Federal Large Pistol I assume). Are there different flavors of black powder?

I understand that the nomenclature of the 38-40 meant a 38 caliber bullet (actually 40 cal in this case) with 40 grains of black powder. Is that what you guy who are using black powder are loading?

Thanks!

 

[Cortland]

Blackpowder fouling is highly corrosive, so if you use blackpowder you'll need to clean the rifle very thoroughly after shooting. If you use "full power" BP loads and your brass is doing it's job as a gasket, all of the fouling should be in the barrel and chamber, though.

38-40 is actually a .40 caliber bullet on top of 40 grains of BP. Why they called it 38-40 instead of 40-40 is open to speculation.

Meister makes lead bullets for .38-40 lubed with SPG for blackpowder shooting (standard lubes are not well-suited for BP). Standard primers work fine (LP). Blackpowder comes in different granulations, use 2F for cartridges. When loading BP cartridges, you don't want any air inside the case. Fill the case so that seating the bullet compresses the powder just a bit. Never put BP through a regular powder measure, there's a danger of sparking. Just find or make something with which to scoop the amount of BP it takes to properly fill the case (Lee powder dippers work well). The charge weight is not near as critical as with smokeless powder, just so long as you make sure there's no air inside the case. BP is always measured by volume, never by weight.

BP fouling is also corrosive to brass. After firing, you'll want to deprime and scrub your brass with soapy water as soon as possible.

Lyman has a book on blackpowder loading. It contains a section of blackpowder cartridge reloading that should give you all the information you need.

 

[mleeber]

Thanks guys!

I ordered the book you recommended from Midway, looking forward to reading it. Also got a good URL from a post on GlockTalk written by David Harper. Good basic info and powder comparisons. I had no idea that BP required different Lube and cleanup proceedures; I never would have considered using water to clean my 130 year old gun!

Although I will read the book before I actually buy any powder it sounds like CleanShot is the powder that is easiest to use since I don't have to use any special lubes (the bullets I have are already lubed with blue lube). I am also a bit concerned about loading up an entire 38-40 case with powder and setting it off in my '73. I may use a "cookie" to reduce the charge a little. I also read that Cornmeal or Cream of Wheat can be used to "dilute" the powder.

Thanks for the guidance!

 

[Cortland]

Keep in mind your rifle was designed to shoot a full case of blackpowder, moreso than it was designed to shoot even very light charge of smokeless. The Lyman book that you've bought shows that a full charge of blackpowder in .38-40 reaches a peak pressure of less than 6,000 C.U.P. That's nothing!

Personally I think fillers in blackpowder cartridges like .38-40 are unnecessary given the low operating pressure of regular blackpowder loads, and with fillers you may even run the risk of not getting a good gas seal from your cartridge case, which could result in fouling blown back into the action. A good gas seal guarantees that 99% of the fouling is down the barrel.

I don't know much about Clear Shot (other than that Goex isn't making it anymore), but I wouldn't trust any of the BP substitutes to be 100% non-corrosive. So given that I'll have to clean the rifle anyway, I choose what's cheapest and most authentic: blackpowder

 

[mleeber]

Thanks Courtland!

What bullets are you using? I picked up some of these http://users.adelphia.net/~mleeber/images/TV38-40.jpg at a gunshow a while back. They are Tennesse Valley and I am told they are specific to 38-40 (I assume the diameter is not the same as a 10mm/40SW). As you can see the lube is blue which according to what I read here http://users3.ev1.net/~dave42/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm is for smokeless or shorter pistol barrels. My concern, also based on the URL, is that the lube channel is not wide enough for the lube reccomended by the autor. Based on this I was leaning towards the CleanShot (ClearShot is apparently something else that is not made anymore) but I am still at the base of the learning curve with this.

I am still very much a sponge when it comes to this BP stuff. Your guidance is welcomed and very much appreciated!

Thanks!
Mark

 

[mleeber]

Just cleaned the bore on my '73 and the only pitting is at the very end of the muzzle. The rifling can be seen the length of the barrel and the bore is shiny. My bore light is on order so I did this with a flashlight. I expect to see much better once the bore light arrives.

I ran a dry nylon brush, a dry brass brush, several patches of Shooter's Choice, wet nylon, wet brass, and then dry patches. Lots of brown came out on the patches. After the patches were coming our relatively clean I ran a few patches of WD-40 through to lubricate the bore and keep moisture out.

For the outside I sprayed some WD-40 on a rag and wiped it down.

Will probably dismantel Sunday and check the internals but I am excited that the bore is in such good shape.

 

[Cortland]

I use SPG-lubed .38-40 bullets from Meister. SPG is a lube designed for blackpowder, and you do pay a premium for SPG-lubed bullets over traditional smokeless lubes. Midway sells the SPG-lubed Meister bullets at $10.50/100. The diameter is in fact the same as .40 S&W/10mm, but the cannelure for roll-crimping makes it .38-40 specific.

It sounds like your rifle's bore is in good shape. I have an 1896 Krag rifle with a bore that looks like a sewer pipe devoid of any rifling -- it shoots 1/2" groups at 50 yards. So the moral is don't worry too much about minor pitting, just keep it oiled

 

[mleeber]

Shot the '73 today! 15 rounds of smokeless and 15 rounds of 777 FFg. the smokeless was OK, 2" group at 25 yards. The 777 however was amazing! sub 1.5" at 25 yards. the pattern was a 4 leaf clover with the 5th round touching but high right. The gun is shooting about 5 inches high at 25 yards with the rear sight set all the way down. I am guessing that it will be very near POA at 100 yards.

The 777 loads also felt more substantial. The recoil was nice and solid vs the 6.0 grains of Titegroup in the smokeless loads. The only downside to the 777 was the smell! It almost burns your nose a little. If this stuff smells better than real BP then I would hate to smell real BP. An indoor range is not the place to shoot this stuff.

Looks like 777 is the load of choice for me.