Reloading issues.

[ElevenBravo]

Hi guys-

I'm relatively new to reloading, and I've been having some major problems with some of my reloads. It's been having all of my buddies who reload scratch their heads, but I think it's multiple issues compounded with the fact that I've just started reloading, so it's automatically assumed that I'm doing everything wrong somehow.

A little history:
I'm reloading for my Tikka T3 in 300 WSM. Prior to this, I've been shooting Federal factory loads without an issue, and saved all my brass. Due to the shortage, I've had to gather bits and pieces over time (a couple of months) until I had everything I needed to reload. I had a friend of mine who has been reloading for a long time go over the reloading process with me, and I read the ABCs of Reloading before doing anything. Loaded a batch of .45ACP with no issues (great results too) before moving on to rifle.

My first batch of rifle reloads was a disaster. Some fired. Others- the primers were falling out of a few of the rounds. Others would go clickBANG (hangfire or slow primer?), some would go click and do nothing. Not even the sound of the primer going off. All primers that managed to say in the brass show nice firing pin dents where they should be. Ask a few friends, the consensus is that I was seating the primers incorrectly. I was using the primer arm on my RCBS press, so I picked up a Hornady hand loader. Load up another batch, same problem. OK, so I guess we've removed the idiot from the equation... Chatting with another reloading friend, suggests trying different primers and also trying to seat a primer using my thumb.

I was using Winchester WLRM primers at the time and had picked up a box of CCI magnum primers, so I picked out some brass and tried to thumb some primers in. Managed to do it with a Wincester and a CCI primer. AHA! I think. Must be bad brass. Buddies still think I'm doing something wrong, but a little searching on the Googles show more than a couple people complaining that Federal brass is too soft for the high pressures that a 300 WSM generates and it stretches the primer pocket after one firing.

Buy a bag of Winchester brass. Resize, trim, load up normally. Decide that I'm going to do OCW, so I load up about 30 rounds of various charges. All fire without an issue, and I think that my troubles may be over, but I'm going to wait until that brass has been reloaded before I rejoice. Figured out two nice OCW loads, one of which gives me 1/2 MOA at 200 yards.

Reload Winchester brass with the same Winchester WLRM primers that I've been using. I've actually used up about 100 now, and started into a new flat of primers- actually figured out later on that I used my wife's Winchester Large Rifle primers for her 7-08, but she uses the same powder as me so I figure it's not an issue - especially since research shows that Large Rifle may give better results for some people. Halfway through throwing powder, I've used up my 1 pound jar of IMR4350 and open up my 8 pound jug.

Head out to the desert to shoot. Lots of problems - no primers falling out, but I had 4 rounds where things went click instead of bang. I can hear the firing pin, but not the primer going off. One clickBANG like a hangfire or a slow primer burn. A few of them fire. I stop after about 10 rounds.

Go home, pull the bullets and drop the powder on the 4 that I tried to fire. Ran the 4 cases through the rifle twice with no bang. Deprimed the brass and saw that the primers look dirty as if they've been fired. 2 of the primers look as if they still have priming material under the anvil. On a whim, I reprimed one of the brass with a new batch of Winchester WLRM primers that I bought on Saturday and fired it off in the garage. This is the first time I've heard a primer going off before.

So... one of my friends thinks that I must somehow be doing something wrong still, but can't think of what it may be. Another thinks my Tikka is causing the problems,<deleted>. Both admit that it may be a bad lot of primers however unlikely, and that I was experiencing 2 problems with my reloads originally: bad primers and crappy brass. Now that I think I've resolved the crappy brass issue, either I'm doing something wrong with my reloading and it's inconsistent, or I've managed to come across a bad lot of primers the first time out.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Sam1911]

First thing is to strip the bolt and see if the firing pin looks ok. And how it it's protrusion beyond the breech face in the fired position?

If you prime a bunch of cases with the hand-primer and run them through the gun, do they all fire? Is that at least consistent, or do some of them hang or misfire? If you don't get perfect ignition, I'd find another box of primers and try again. If you're still not getting consistent ignition, I'd definitely look at the gun as the likely culprit. A gunsmith could tell you if you've got proper firing pin protrusion and spring tension.

You could even have a headspace problem where the round isn't being held against the breech firmly enough for the pin to hit the primer strongly. Odd, but it could happen, especially if there's something wrong with your dies and they're sizing the cases down too far.

Primers falling out? That sounds like a bloody high pressure situation! It could be the brass was just THAT bad, but wow, that's got to be a mighty charge of powder to have them literally falling out.

 

[ElevenBravo]

primers were falling out while being chambered. 2 of them dropped while in the loading block. If 1 atmosphere of pressure too much... I'm shooting 61.5.gr of IMR4350, which is about 6gr below max according to Hornady's manual, so I think I'm good there. I did some high near max-charge loads while doing OCW, and inspected each brass for signs of overpressure but didn't see any even when I got near 67gr.

Hand priming, with the first batch of fresh Winchester brass, I had 0 issues when firing, and assumed that I had resolved my problems. OCW load was determined, I was very pleased that everything worked and developed a couple of accurate loads. That was about 30 rounds from the same batch of primers and the same jug of powder.

After reloading the Winchester brass, no primers have fallen out, but the dud issue has returned. I have 4 dud primers that look like they either fired or partially fired but failed to light the powder. One friend thinks I'm contaminating the primers somehow or it's a bad batch. Another thinks that I'm either an idiot (I'm willing to accept that), *maybe* it's the primers, *maybe* it's the rifle, *maybe* it's the powder , *maybe* it's my dies - still new RCBS FL dies, but won't put money on anything except the idiot possibility (he's not helping much)

I have a new lot of Winchester WLRM primers, and a case of CCI magnums. I'm planning on doing about 15 with Winchester, 15 with CCI, and maybe 10 or so with the suspect Winchester lot and see what results I get. I saved the powder from all my unfired stuff so I can use that as a control to eliminate the powder possibility.

 

[Sam1911]

primers were falling out while being chambered. 2 of them dropped while in the loading block.

Uh...WUT? The primer FELL OUT while you were trying to chamber the round? How the heck...? Ok, let's call that bad brass.

As for bad primers, yeah, that's a possibility, though not one you hear of very often -- at all. Switching to another lot or another brand pretty much will rule that one out completely.

Still worth stripping the bolt and checking everything out in there.

Not full-length resizing would give you the best brass life and eliminate any die issues.

 

[ElevenBravo]

I have a neck resizing die which I used the first time around, but after the disaster of the first batch, switched to full length resizing.

 

[Louca]

Maybe stating the obvious here, but with respect to primers not firing, could there be ANY oil or contaminant on the decapping pin of your resizing die? I have read that primers should never be touched with the hands (particularly fingers) because of possible contamination. My HK 45C manual says not to use penetrating cleaners in magazines because if excess remains, it can penetrate into primer pockets and contaminate the primers.

I cannot recall the last time I actually touched an unfired primer. I always load from a tube, loaded from a primer dish, loaded from a primer tray.

I have a neck resizing die which I used the first time around, but after the disaster of the first batch, switched to full length resizing.

Was it cleaned and oil-free before you started using it?

Lou

 

[Sam1911]

While I agree with Louca that a lot of handling isn't great for primers, I don't think they're nearly as sensitive to a little finger oil as that might suggest. Certainly not enough to cause this kind of trouble.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8444019

 

[ElevenBravo]

Maybe be possible that the resizing die has some lube on it, I'll disassemble it tonight and clean it out.

As for touching the primers, the only time I touch them are when I'm dumping them from the tray into the holder on my hand loader. I could wear nitrile gloves while doing this, but that seems a tad excessive. I usually wash my hands after resizing since I've been handling lubed cases

 

[gspn]

What is your primer seating depth? Are you measuring it with a micrometer? The number of no-fires and hang-fires you have makes me think you aren't seating them deep enough.

If a primer isn't seated all the way, many times the energy of the firing pin is "wasted" by pushing the primer in all the way and there's not enough left over to crush it. This leaves you with light strikes and no bang, or perhaps a hang-fire.

Are you inspecting the bottom of your finished rounds? Are any primers sticking up? Are the depths consistent? Measure the seating depth with a micrometer and let us know the minimum, maximum, and average depths you record.

 

[ElevenBravo]

I am checking the case bottoms after seating the primers. None are sticking out, they are all a hair under the face of the case.

I have no micrometer to measure the seating depth with.

 

[billybob44]

Great Primer Tool..

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/457599/rcbs-automatic-bench-priming-tool
This is the primer tool that I use for most of my rifle loads. You will have NO problem seating primers with this tool..

PS: You should 'Feel' the primer bottom out on the case. When you do, you actually 'Crush' the anvil of the primer into the primer compound. This is the correct primer position+usually will be just below flush with the case rim..Bill.

 

[JRWhit]

I hate to try and weigh in too much, there is a lot of guys here that have been doing this much longer than i have, but it really sounds like the primers are being contaminated and based on your description, the powder too.
You mentioned the one primer you looked at looked like it went off but the powder didn't ignite. You also mentioned the click-bang. Is there any way any of your case lube is making it inside the case? Any lube making it into the primer pocket?

 

[ElevenBravo]

i'm not going to discount anything right now. a friend of mine recommended Hornady One-Shot lube and claims that it doesn't contaminate primers and powder. as I'm almost done for the day, I'll stop by Sportsman's Warehouse to pick up a can.

 

[rcmodel]

How are you cleaning cases, or, are you??

Sounds like a good possibility of wet cleaning of some sort, and leaving moisture in the cases when you loaded them.

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the case lube you are using.
Unless you are using an excessive amount of case lube on everything, inside & out.

rc

 

[ElevenBravo]

dry tumbling with corncob media.

I'm using Lyman spray lube, a couple of squirts across the loading block, turn it and a couple more. Usually what I do is as I'm pulling brass out of the block, i run my fingers over the case to make sure the lube is evenly distributed on the outside and that there's not too much. I'm trying to avoid hydraulic dents and having the resizing die dripping with lube.

 

[gspn]

It’s time to put on your detective hat. This isn’t a terribly hard problem...it just has a lot of variables. We need to isolate and eliminate variables until we find the one (or “ones” ) that are causing the problem.

As you go through new reloads try to keep things consistent (use only one type of primer, brass, bullet, etc per batch of loads.) Below I’ve tried to break out as best I could from your original post how your four batches of reloads were assembled and how they performed...please correct me where necessary...it’s important to have all the facts laid out right as we start this process.

Batch 1-

Once fired Federal cases (no problems with the original factory load)
Winchester WLRM AND CCI magnum primers
Used RCBS priming mechanism

Batch 1 results:

primers falling out
some failed to ignite
some hang-fires
all hang-fire and fail-to -ingnites had firing pin strikes

Batch 1 Discussion: If the brass is so loose that the primers are falling out, you should feel that during the primer seating stage. It might be difficult to tell since you are new and might not have developed a feel for it yet...but going forward pay attention to how it feels when you seat a primer. If one feels a lot different than the others, stop and check it. What are you checking for? Primer pocket uniformity. Get a micrometer...it is one of the reloading detectives best friends. You don’t have to buy an expensive one...but they can answer questions that no other tool can.

If your primers are seated properly, being struck by the pin, and still having ignition problems then you could have:

- bad primers
- a problem with the gun (weak firing pin spring, broken firing pin, obstruction, etc)
- I’m going to assume the weather is warm where you are...but if you are way up north somewhere and it’s really cold you might have an issue with the oil or grease in your bolt thickening....it’s a long shot since it’s warm dang near everywhere but it’s worth mentioning


Batch 2 - you only mention that you “loaded up another batch” but give no details on which primers were used. Also on this batch you switch priming mechanisms. The problems in Batch 2 are the same as in Batch 1...presumably the only difference between these is the priming mechanism. Please let me know if this is not correct.

Batch 2 discussion - The fact that you:

have primers FALLING OUT of the brass even after just a single factory firing
have found corroborating complaints of same from other users
have had no similar problems with Winchester brass

...all leads me to believe your problems with primers falling out in batches 1 and 2 are solely the result of bad brass.


Batch 3 -

Winchester brass (new, unfired)
No mention of which primers were used

Batch 3 results -

All fire, no problems

Batch 3 Discussion: This batch is your benchmark. Everything worked. Strive to determine what you did in this cycle that you might have done differently in subsequent cycles.

This was new brass...which tells me it was clean brass. After a firing there may have been some crud built up in the primer pocket...did you clean it before loading Batch 4?

Batch 4 -

Reload Winchester brass from Batch 3
WLRM and WLR primers


Batch 4 results

-4 misfires
-1 hang-fire
-no primers falling out
-approx 10 rounds fired with a 50% fail rate...all ignition related

Batch 4 Discussion:

After Batch 4 you pulled the bullets, then tried to fire them? Those primers already had strike marks on them? In my experience you will rarely be able to get a primer to go off that has already been struck. I’ve tried dozens and dozens that had light strikes and in my experience it’s a waste of time....especially if you’re doing it through the gun in which they had a problem. Therefore I’m tossing this evidence out.

Bad batch of primers?

It’s going to be very hard to reach this conclusion because in the first batch of reloads you used two different types of primers (WLRM and CCI) and had problems throughout.

Then in Batch 4 you again had ignition problems and were using WLRM and WLR primers.

You now have three types of primers that have been involved in batches with failures. Complicating matters further is that because the primers were mixed and not trackable we have no idea if all three types were involved in failures, or only primers from one of those groups.

If it were a primer failure the only primer that was used in all batches was the WLRM (assuming they were used in Batch 2). But it’s impossible to prove that they were bad because we don’t know if they were the only ones involved with the fail-to-fire cartridges.

It’s highly doubtful that you got one batch of bad primers...much less THREE bad batches of primers. All of that coupled with the fact that you’re a new reloader leads me to believe this is not a primer problem. This is in no way a bad reflection on you...it’s just that there’s a learning curve here...we all start somewhere...and you’re in the right spot to get some help. There’s lots of really knowledgable people on here.

The rifle?

Given that the rifle worked fine on the factory Federal rounds, and Batch 3 (and clearly hasn’t had any prior issues) it’s difficult for me to suspect the rifle.

Conclusion:

If we conclude that Batches 1 and 2 are a lost cause due to poor brass we are left with only two batches to consider (Batches 3 and 4).

Batch 3 had zero problems and Batch 4 was back to misfires. Batch 3 was brand new unfired brass...new brass is clean brass so your primers likely seated with little effort.

If you didn’t clean the primer pockets after shooting Batch 3, and used less than adequate force to seat the primers you could easily be getting misfires when the primer “slips” under the force of the firing pin...essentially the firing pin is doing the final bit of seating for you...and after using up that energy there’s not enough left to crush the primer.

If it were me...and this is just one mans advice...I’d use the Winchester brass next time...clean the primer pockets well, make darn sure I used enough force to seat the primers...CHECK the primers to make sure they are seated deep enough...and shoot them again.

Going forward keep everything as standard as you can...don’t use three types of primers across two different loads...keep it consistent so you can reliably track the variables and eliminate them as needed.

Just as an extreme quality control measure, maybe you could have one of your more experienced reloader friends seat 10 primers for you, and then you do 10 the way you’ve been doing them. If all of his go off and you get misfires it will shed more light on the subject.

If that’s not possible then just clean the pockets, use enough force, and measure the depth.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[gamestalker]

First off, if those primers are falling out of factory brass that has never been reloaded, then something is either terribly wrong with those factory loads, or those pockets are getting distorted during resizing. That said, how far is your de-priming pin protruding from the bottom of the resizing die? Shouldn't be more than 3/8" or the expander button will make hard contact with the web / flash hole. I would imagine this could damage the pocket and possibly enlarge the pockets.

In consideration of the enlarged pockets, constant mis-fires are very likely due to several possible causes. Either your not seating the primers deep enough, or as you said they aren't staying in the pocket, or the brass hasn't been cleaned of lube used during resizing, thus contaminating them, or all of the above. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with bad primers, as I've never experienced a single mis-fire in all my years of reloading.

GS

 

[ElevenBravo]

That's mostly correct except that I have never fired CCI primers. I bought a box of them to see if the Winchester WLRMs were bad, managed to thumb a CCI into a Federal case and decided at that point the Federal brass couldn't handle being reloaded.

Batch 3 was WLRM primers, same flat I've been using for batches 1, 2 and 4.

After batch 4 failed, I pulled the bullets on the duds and ran them through the gun, to see if I could get them to light. No bang, so I deprimed them and saw that it looks like the primers had lit, either partially or slowly. Definitely not in a way that could get the powder lit.

It's not possible for me to tell which rounds out of batch 4 were WLRM and which were WLR primers, but as I mentioned above, I haven't fired any CCI primers. I didn't intend to use the WLR primers, that was a mistake on my part. Incidentally, the wife uses those WLRs in her 7-08 and she's had no issues with them at all. I think right now she has a better success rate than I do with her reloads.

No worries about the Winchester brass, I gave all my Federal WSM brass to the wife, who promptly turned it all into a tidy sum of money at the recycling center.

 

[gamestalker]

You also need to pick up a caliper, as it is an essential tool of the trade!
I know some brass is of better quality than others, and some might even be inferior for reloading purposes. However, I use Fed, Win, Rem, mostly, but some others over the years as well, and have yet to have a problem for at least the first few cycles reloaded, 6 or so times at the least.

GS

 

[ElevenBravo]

I do own a set of calipers, and use them extensively while reloading.

 

[gamestalker]

Post #10 said you don't have a micrometer, a caliper would work also. I seat primers no less than .004" below the case head, but depending on the pocket depth, you may need to go deeper to set the anvil? I know those big WSM cartridges you are loading are a different beast in some respects, so I sincerely hope you get it solved, and safely.
Best of luck!

GS

 

[41 Mag]

Only two things I can add at this point are,

1) I have seen Federal factory loads expand the primer pockets on the brass in two calibers, one is the 300 RUM and the other is the 7mm STW. In both cases standard factory loads were enough in the two rifles that the pockets expanded enough that a new primer was either very loose seating, or simply would not stay in the case. Same two rifle with Hornady or Remington ammo was fine for multiple loads thereafter.

2) There was a test posted up over on another forum in which they tried every which a way to kill a primer. Even with soaking in penetrating oil it took up to 3 days, if I recall, for even the quickest batch to fail. Unless your handling them with some way or means other than you mentioned it if highly unlikely that this is even a possibility of contamination.

Ok one more. I would lean towards the seating of the primers first and foremost, and if that isn't the issue, then you could possibly have your seating die screwed down too much for you chamber. Could simply be you have just enough of a headspace issue that it is allowing the cases to move forward which would kill the firing pins energy, which I think has already been mentioned.

One thing you can do to check this is soot up the neck of a case, and adjust your sizing die down until it stops sizing the case just above the shoulder on a new case. Then try loading a batch of 10 with it set there. If your primers are seated to depth, you should have no issues with all 10 firing off. If you DO then I would have the chamber of your rifle checked with a no go gauge just to see if it was chambered correctly. I doubt this is the issue but you never know until you check for it.

 

[rcmodel]

I'm using Lyman spray lube, a couple of squirts across the loading block,

Don't lube in the loading block.

You for sure are getting more lube inside the cases then needs to be there.

Throw the cases in a mixing bowl or something so the are laying down.
Spray, and hand stir so they all get the lube.
Then give them a twist in you hand to distribute the lube all over, and wipe off any excess.

Much better chance of getting enough lube on the thicker rear part of the brass.

And way less chance of spraying them full of case lube.

rc

 

[ElevenBravo]

I'll probably get scolded for not sticking to the scientific method of changing one thing and trying it out, but decided that everything I'm doing is wrong and re-evaluate the entire process from start to finish, keeping in mind everyone's advice here.

Broke down my dies, thoroughly cleaned and readjusted them.
Thoroughly washed all my tools and containers
New batch of WLRM primers
Broke down all the ammo I had loaded up, deprimed the brass, dumped the powder, kept the brass and bullets. Had fun with the powder doing Mission Impossible powder trains in the backyard.
New-ish jug of IMR4350
Switch case lube from Lyman to Hornady One Shot.
Made sure to get a really good squeeze on the handle of the hand primer.

Loaded up 49 rounds... wonder where the 50th piece of brass went to?. Went out to CCSP last night. Despite it being very windy, they opened up the rifle side for me and I fired off 36 rounds with no issues before going home. Shot 1/2MOA groups@100 yards, so hopefully whatever was wrong has been remedied. Thanks to everyone who helped out.

 

[Sam1911]

Hey, that is GREAT news!