Reloading my CZ

[sawdeanz]

I have a question regarding magazine changes.
I have always read/heard that the "best" way to release the slide is with a overhand grip, where you put your whole palm over the top of the slide and rack back, however with the low profile slide and my massive hands, there is only room for my fingertips, and when practicing with snap caps I find my hand covering the ejection port and interfering with ejection. I'm finding it easier to slingshot the slide, but was concerned whether this method is a tactical disadvantage especially during reloads.

 

[JohnGalt88]

It is slower and serves no purpose on a gun designed to be released by the slide release. Their is nothing wrong with slingshoting to release the slide but the side release is there for a reason. I own two CZ's and you will never go wrong using the slide release.

 

[NWcityguy2]

The most "tactical" way to reload is as fast as possible. For me that's a thumb on the slide release. For racking the slide back I do what you describe, but I've got small hands.

 

[armoredman]

The over hand method was invented by armorers who don't want to replace slides with slide stop cut outs worn round by constant slipping of the slide stop. On Dept range guns used over and over again daily, I can see that. My personal sidearm? Nope. I got yelled at at Qualification more than once, I had fun explaining that I had learned that method in the military before the instructor had been born, so good luck trying to train it out of me.

 

[sawdeanz]

Ok so my understanding from you guys is that using the slide stop is ok, and if it ever does wear out I can just replace it. Good to know thanks

 

[GLOOB]

The overhand is supposed to better than slingshotting, because the grip is more secure. Obviously, if you grip the gun better with a slingshot, then do that.

This overhand method is just a square peg into a round hole solution. Some guns are too small to do an overhand without blocking the ejection port (in case of a tap-rack). And as you noticed, on some guns, there's not much to hang onto.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

IMO there is no truth to "X gun's slide stop isn't supposed to be used to release the slide." Of course it is. Just use whatever method is more comfortable for you. As with 1911s and old-style S&W metal-frames, my PCR's slide stop is just a little far forward for my shooting hand (right) thumb, but perfectly placed for my left thumb. However, there is no guarantee that you will have both hands available.

 

[1SOW]

I agree with the above with two comments.

A normally sprung pistol should feed the cartridge with the the slide release if nothing is restricting slide travel, like a lot of shooting crud. If your gun's recoil spring is lightly sprung or weak it may not feed, especially in a dirty gun. The "strongest cartridge feed" is with FULL slide travel, like when a fired cartridge cycles it all the way back.

With your PO7, you can likely do a firm mag insert and the slide will release when the top cartridge in the mag bumps the slide. Same provisos. For pure speed, this is the fastest.

Easiest, most reliable, fastest? take your pick.

 

[Ash]

I can see no reason to do the overhand method, and the better grip is of questionable advantage. If doing a reload, you have to pull it back just be barest fraction of an inch. Even the most tenuous grip will suffice. If loading from an empty chamber and slide forward, you are not in a quick and dangerous situation. There is plenty of time to grip the slide tightly.

I suspect it is preferred at the present because it is fashionable. When the time comes that it falls out of style (say, perhaps, because some special forces unit universally uses uses the one-hand slide-on-thigh method), it will be touted as slow and inferior by those who choose the newest method. It is how it always has been.

 

[Zerodefect]

My hands are very long. I cover the ejection port as well. As long as you rip the slide back hard and violently you'll have no problems. Rip it back so hard that your hand comes off and hits you chest. With that amount of force your hand will be off and clear as the case/round ejects,yes it should hurt a little.

[Lee Emry drill instructer voice on]"Rip it's head off!" [Drill instructer voice off]

Overhand racking is a bit more reliable. It's good to use both techniques. I default to overhand racking. Thumb pointed at my chest. I use the slide lock lever when I need to, but my primary technique is overhand racking. If I'm in a hurry, in a tight improvised position, or am fumbing with mag retention I'll use the slide lock lever.

A pistol is most likely to fail after reloading. Anything you can do to make it more reliable at that moment is helpful. I've noted repeatedly, that when a pistol fails in comp or classes, it's allmost allways that first round after a reload. Pulling that slide back that extra fraction of an inch deos help.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Can't you just lay your off hand across the sights on the rear of the slide, and rack/release it that way?

The sights aren't delicate, and even adjustable sights shouldn't be knocked out of position by being used in that manner.

An acquaintance who is an instructor (and long-time IPSC Pro) has been working with/training Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg for a number of years. He told me, some time back, that the Army had moved away from the "sling shot" method of slide release with combat pistol, and moved to using the slide release. And this was being used by Special Ops troops, too.

That's because they've found that far too many cases of the guns not going properly into battery after being released slingshot style, IN COMBAT. They're now focusing on using the slide release -- either with the strong hand, or with the off hand. Some folks can use their strong-hand thumb, others can use their offhand -- using several fingers (as a single "extra-side" finger) to press the release.

Seems as though you ought to be able to use any of these methods, and just see what works best for you.

When I was shooting more regularly (and in IDPA), I found that using my offhand to release the slide was fastest for me -- probably because I only had one weapon (a Glock 34) that had the slide release properly positioned and easy enough to press that I could use my strong-hand thumb to do it.

 

[GLOOB]

I think some people are confusing the terms "slingshot" and "overhand" as being the same thing. They're two different methods of manually racking the slide, as opposed to using the slide release. So we're really talking about 3 things. Anyways...

As for which one produces more chambering force, I think the slide release can, in some circumstances, produce more relative velocity than the slingshot or overhand. Especially with a gun with a small grip and lightweight frame.

With the overhand, you are producing more slide travel. But the frame of the gun is pretensioned into the back of your hand at the moment you release the slide. When you use the slide release, the frame of the gun jumps backwards into your hand just a tad. Thus relative slide velocity can be higher at the critical moment. Also, with the overhand method, esp, your fingers might not all release at exactly the same time, so there can be some drag on the slide as it starts forward. Of course this all depends on your hands, grip, and the gun's mass, cycle speed, etc. To put it into perspective, if you put the frame in a vice and trip the slide release, the slide will reach a certain maximum velocity. If you put the slide in a vice and hit the slide release, the frame will reach a higher velocity than the slide did, if it is lighter than the slide. If you leave the gun hanging on a string and trip the slide release, the relative velocity of the slide compared to the frame would be even higher. Thought of in another way, when you slingshot/overhand, some of the recoil spring energy is used up in the process of moving the gun's overall COG forwards. A tad bit moreso than when tripping the slide release in a normal grip (not in a vice).

There is a gun (I think Kahr?) where the manual recommends using the slide release to load the first round, because racking the gun doesn't always provide enough force.

 

[sawdeanz]

Gloob, I am indeed making a distinction between slingshotting (gripping the rear of the slide with my thumb and pointer finger like a slingshot) and the overhand method. It may be that I just need to practice manipulating the gun more with snap caps. The sights are sort of ramped so they wouldn't work for racking it, and anyway that sounds more painful. I guess I'm just surprised that even though i'm a big guy, the recoil spring can be so difficult to operate quickly and consistently.
I may be worrying too much about it, as if I'm ever reloading in a stressful situation, my slide should already be locked back from the first shot and it is easy enough to trip the slide forward with either method, but in case of a malfunction I feel as though I do need a consistent method.

 

[av8usn]

I use both methods. When I am loading a magazine for the first time in a C.O.F. I generally use the overhand method. It is easy and convenient to the task, and speed is not of the essence. However, when reloading from slide lock I try to use the slide release. It is, arguably, faster and gets you back on target quicker. I shoot both an SP01 Tactical and Phantom, and neither exhibits any undue wear.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

sawdeanz:

The slide shouldn't be all that difficult to rack, unless you've moved to a heavier recoil spring. If so, consider going back to a 14 lb. (or lighter) spring. If you've gone to 16 or 18 pounds, the slide is more difficult. Wolff makes variable rate springs for the Browning Hi-Power, as well as lighter springs, and a number of them are light enough to work in the CZ. I've used 18 lb. BHP springs in the past, and am now using 14 lb springs. The 14 lb springs make it much easier to rack the slide, but the gun still performs properly.

If you ever replace the recoil spring, look at those BHP springs as replacements. (As I've noted elsewhere, the springs Wolff offers for CZs are really made for the Witness/Tanfoglio guns, and they typically have a much larger diameter guide rod -- and the Wolff spring won't fit the guide rod as closely/snugly as stock CZ springs.)

A lot of folks go to heavier recoil springs with the idea of protecting the gun's frame from recoil battering but, in fact, recoil doesn't really batter the frame. Much of the recoil force is STORED in the spring, and the spring rests on the guide rod, and one the end of that rests on a very well-structured place called the receiver stop and the other (end of the spring) rests against the slide.. As the slide goes back, the slide is also being slowed by the hammer spring, which also helps slow the slide and absorbs some of the force. I don't think you have to worry about frame damage.

A heavier recoil spring can, itself, cause damage, as it can cause the slide to slam forward with greater force (as it returns and loads the next round). That extra force must be dealt with by the slide stop -- a much less substantial piece of metal than the receiver stop area.

 

[F-111 John]

The point of using the overhand grip to release the slide after a reload is to burn that motion into your muscle memory, because the overhand grip gives you the most leverage for racking the slide during a malfunction clearance drill.

 

[ATLDave]

The point of using the overhand grip to release the slide after a reload is to burn that motion into your muscle memory, because the overhand grip gives you the most leverage for racking the slide during a malfunction clearance drill.

Except on something with a short (not tall) slide, such as a CZ or Tanfoglio. When I have a 20 lb spring in my Tanf' 10mm, I can't get enough purchase on the slide with an overhand grip to reliably rack the slide with any force, and I would rate my hand strength as being above average. With some guns, the slingshot grip allows more force to be applied.

 

[GLOOB]

A big difference between slingshot and overhand is gun position. To do the overhand, you have to bring the gun back in just a little and/or point it across to the left. No issue during a mag change, cuz you're already doing this. You can slingshot or use the forward serrations with the gun more or less pointing straight ahead

So besides the amount of grip you get, you might prefer one or the other, depending on how close your adversary is and/or what your body position is or where you need to keep your muzzle pointed. If bringing in to a close retention position is desirable, then the overhand is easier to do.

 

[F-111 John]

How fortunate that this video appeared in my Youtube subscriptions inbox. It demonstrates the overhand technique for reloading, unloading, and malfunction clearing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkZgYb-ReSU

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I overhand rack all my slides. When I try the pinching between thumb and forefinger, I have poor leverage unless I turn the gun on its side.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You can slingshot or use the forward serrations with the gun more or less pointing straight ahead

It is the unusual shooter who actually uses it that way, however.

I participated in many matches as a safety officer, observing shooters and later helping with the scoring. With the slingshot, I most often saw the gun pointed skyward, far from horizontal, with the offhand used to pull the slide down, while the muzzle of the gun was directed away from what might be the target. About the only time I ever say the front serrations used was with a "press check" as they nervously got ready to holster the weapon for the start...

That said, people do UGLY things using other "slide management methods," too. <grin>

 

[GLOOB]

When I try the pinching between thumb and forefinger, I have poor leverage unless I turn the gun on its side.

This is exactly what I do. I use the forward serrations, mind you. Right arm slightly bent, tilt the gun "gangsta," and I can rack it wile keeping the muzzle pointed directly at my target, sights right where they need to be as I straighten the gun and reacquire my support grip, and all without shifting my feet or turning my torso. Course, I've never taken a SD or tactical class. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems rather safe and efficient, to me.

 

[ATLDave]

I participated in many matches as a safety officer, observing shooters and later helping with the scoring. With the slingshot, I most often saw the gun pointed skyward, far from horizontal, with the offhand used to pull the slide down, while the muzzle of the gun was directed away from what might be the target.

Interesting, and very different from my own observations at shooting ranges (though not at matches). In my experience, which I do not pretend is universal, those using the overhand method have an alarming tendency to turn the gun 90° to the intended target, thus pointing the gun straight down the line!

People pick up all kinds of terrible (non-)safety habits from watching gun-handling in movies, and I suspect the skyward slingshot and the enfilading overhand are both rooted in cinema.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Interesting, and very different from my own observations at shooting ranges (though not at matches). In my experience, which I do not pretend is universal, those using the overhand method have an alarming tendency to turn the gun 90° to the intended target, thus pointing the gun straight down the line!

I think you inferred something I didn't intend to convey. I wasn't trying to say that the "overhand" method was better, but that the slingshot method had it's own problems. Overhand, as you suggest, can be "abused" or poorly done, like other methods.

I haven't seen the overhand method used as much, probably because SLINGSHOT was the standard for so many years -- and part of the "TAP, RACK, BANG" clearance drill.

I try to avoid slingshot, and if racking the slide is needed, will TRY to do the overhand method. But that need has come up so infrequently, except at the start of a string or range session, I've been very lax and have not really TRAINED for the best technique. For a clearance drill, I'm sure I'll revert to the slingshot, but I know I've done it both ways. (Keeping my hand away from the ejection port makes sense when trying to clear a jam or misfeed.)

(Note: I've got a new SIG P226 .40 X5 with a recoil spring that is SO HEAVY that releasing the slide requires substantial force. You simply CANNOT release the slide using the slide release lever -- and I must use BOTH the lever AND either the slingshot or overhand method. It requires way too much effort and motion and leverage!! [As I key this I need to make myself a note to order new, lighter recoil springs from Wolff -- maybe a pack of different weights to see what works best!!] I just put in a lighter weight hammer spring, and it made a world of difference in the trigger weight/pull -- while still igniting the primers.)

(Corrected a misspelling, above, and also ordered a set of lighter recoil springs from Wolff...)

 

[ATLDave]

I think you inferred something I didn't intend to convey. I wasn't trying to say that the "overhand" method was better, but that the slingshot method had it's own problems. Overhand, as you suggest, can be "abused" or poorly done, like other methods.

Ah, well then we're in complete agreement. I think I'd go so far as to say nobody has yet invented a gun-handling technique that some tacti-cool rube cannot make unsafe.