Reloading plated .40 bullets

[sdrnavy]

I have been reloading for 16 years now, and I have been reloading the .40 S&W for about 8 years . It is harder to find FMJ bullets now than it has been in a long time for me. Copper plated bullets are abundant, and cheaper. I have had 2 of the most expensive learning lessons in the past year. Reading some forums have been misleading. I listened to some of the salesmen at the gunshows, and I purchased some copper plated bullets 165 grn and 180 grn, they informed me that I could use the same reloading data as FMJ bullets. Listen gentlemen, from my experience with two very good pistols, " Beretta PX4 Storm, and an Uzi Baby Eagle", I have been mislead. My Beretta PX4 Storm .40 had the frame cracked, and I had to sell it "luckily" to a machinist for $200.00.. It was trashed ! My Baby Eagle was repaired for $158.00 after copper plated bullets and misinformation on other sites have led to this experience. Please pay attention to some of the warnings on these reloading pages on the internet, and do good research before hitting the range with your reloads. And wear your shooting glasses ! Especially when experimenting new loads ! " My own lesson'

 

[SwaneeSR]

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

I have been loading .40sw for about a year. I understand load data for lead bullets should be applied to the plated Xtreme bullets i have been using.

I switched recently from 165gr to 180gr. With that i am trying to find a load that shoots well. Also i expect my chronograph to keep me from driving the plated projectiles too hard.

Swanee

 

[Havok7416]

Even using upper end load data I don't see how a plated bullet would cause damage like that. To me it sounds like a complete overcharge or something similar. Maybe I'm wrong, but I run plated bullets in 10mm with a full (FMJ) charge and my guns aren't cracking.

 

[Walkalong]

What happened to cause the damage? Please explain and not just through that out there. You gave us no information at all except somehow you damaged two guns, which you blame on plated bullets.

 

[LiveLife]

I have been reloading for 16 years now, and I have been reloading the .40 S&W for about 8 years.

Reading some forums have been misleading. I listened to some of the salesmen at the gunshows, and I purchased some copper plated bullets 165 grn and 180 grn, they informed me that I could use the same reloading data as FMJ bullets.

Beretta PX4 Storm, and an Uzi Baby Eagle", I have been mislead. My Beretta PX4 Storm .40 had the frame cracked, and I had to sell it "luckily" to a machinist for $200.00.. It was trashed! My Baby Eagle was repaired for $158.00 after copper plated bullets and misinformation on other sites have led to this experience.

Please pay attention to some of the warnings on these reloading pages on the internet, and do good research before hitting the range with your reloads.

sdrnavy, welcome to THR.

While I can't speak to misinformation you received from other forums, on THR we do try to post reloading information that is safe and factual in line with published load data.

40S&W was my match caliber and while I competed with jacketed bullets, I practiced with plated bullets (Berry's, HSM, PowerBond, Rainier, RMR, TMJ, X-Treme, etc.). I have shot several hundred thousands of jacketed/plated reloads in 155/165/180 gr bullet weights in various Glocks/M&Ps and have not experienced issues but seen several KaBooms.

While I have used lead and up to mid-range jacketed load data for plated bullets, there are now published load data for plated bullets you can reference for your loads.

One thing I have noticed with 40S&W and TCFP nose type plated bullets vs RN is that they are more prone to bullet set back when the bullet nose slams against the feed ramp. If the bullet base gets seated deeper from bullet setback, your chamber pressure can significantly increase even though you are using below max published lead load data to over max jacketed load data. What matters is not the finished OAL/COL but "chambered" length/bullet seating depth.

To measure bullet setback, feed/chamber the dummy round (no powder/no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it. If length decreases by more than several thousandths, you have neck tension issue that needs to be addressed (improve neck tension and/or reduce powder charge). If you are using mixed range brass, you should test sample of each headstamp.

Also, Lyman #49 used larger groove diameter test barrel (.401") instead of more typical .400"and I find Lyman #49 load data significantly higher than load data from powder manufacturers. So slug your barrel to determine groove diameter and if your barrel's groove diameter is .401", use Lyman #49 data but if your barrel is .400", I would use more conservative load data from powder manufacturers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9907655#post9907655

As to the advice you received from gunshow to use jacketed load data for plated bullets, I consider .012" thickness of copper plating the threshold to use jacketed load data as thinner plated bullets lost accuracy when higher than mid-range jacketed load data was used. Below is listing of plated bullet information I compiled as best as I could over the years that you can reference - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9927091#post9927091

Speer TMJ: .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

Rocky Mountain Reloading HM: .012"-.014" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/9mm-...73FC182726A6894DC5430243EC4092.m1plqscsfapp06

Berry's Thick Plated (TP): .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

PowerBond: .010"-.011" (rated to 1300 fps) - http://www.bms.highbornoutdoors.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=14

Berry's Regular: .0035"-.008" (rated to 1250 fps) - http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q12-c1-How_thick_is_the_jacket_on_your_bullets.aspx

HSM: .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/44...eter-180-grain-plated-hollow-point-box-of-500

Rainier: .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

X-Treme: Can't find any reference for plating thickness but rates the regular plated bullets to 1200 fps and "Heavy Plate Concave Base" plated bullets to 1500 fps - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Frontier CMJ: Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/our-products/

 

[cwall64]

X-Treme: Can't find any reference for plating thickness but rates the regular plated bullets to 1200 fps and "Heavy Plate Concave Base" plated bullets to 1500 fps

I just ran several 100 of these ("Heavy Plate Concave Base") in .40 cal 180 grain this weekend, no issues at close to the different powder manufacturers maximums for TMJs (Accurate Powder and Alliant). In 10mm running average of 1250 they did not seem to perform as well in accuracy as Hornady HAPs (on bags through chronograph). But, in 40 S&W running average of 1020 their accuracy was on par with the Hornady HAPs...

No issues in my Glocks or H&Ks.

 

[ReloaderFred]

I've run so many Berry's plated bullets that I have a wholesale account with them. I've fired them through a multitude of handguns, both semiauto and revolver. The only problem I've ever had with them was driving them too fast and stripping the rifling, which simply makes the bullet tumble and hit the right hand upright on the skyscreen on my PACT Professional chronograph. They weren't designed to be driven at 1,450 fps, so I can hardly blame that on the bullet.......

There is a lot of information lacking in the OP, so speculation is all we're left with as to how the two firearms in question were actually damaged. I'd need more information on the loading process and actual data used before I could make even an uneducated guess as to the cause.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[bocefus78]

I've run my fair share of xtreme 240's thru my marlin 1894 at 1300ish fps with no loss of plating. That's the normal plating-NOT heavy.

Never once out of thousands have I had an issue with them at handgun velocities in 9 and 40 either. Loaded to FMJ standards.

I know the baby eagle has poly rifling. Not sure about the beretta...Possibly a leaded up bore then shooting plated projo's? If that's the case, even FMJ would run at higher pressures so its not the plated pill at fault.

 

[g.willikers]

Count me in, too.
No problems with plated bullets, using lead bullet equivalent load data.

 

[LiveLife]

Speer Gold Dot HP and TMJ bullets are plated with TMJ having .015" thickness copper plating and can be pushed to jacketed load data.

With regular thickness plated bullets (around .004" - .008") I use lead load data (up to mid jacketed) but with thicker plated bullets (.012"-.014"+), I feel comfortable using full jacketed load data.

For those curious, we no longer have to "guess" how to load plated bullets as there are published plated load data. Here's an example from Hodgdon for Berry's plated bullets (BERB) - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

165 gr SIE JHP W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 4.8 gr (946 fps) 28,100 PSI - Max 5.3 gr (1,001 fps) 32,500 PSI
165 gr BERB FP W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 4.7 gr (933 fps) 25,200 PSI - Max 5.4 gr (1,049 fps) 33,400 PSI

180 gr HDY XTP W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 4.1 gr (797 fps) 23,800 PSI - Max 5.0 gr (947 fps) 32,900 PSI
180 gr BERB FP W231/HP-38[/B] COL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (872 fps) 26,400 PSI - Max 5.1 gr (984 fps) 33,500 PSI

 

[sdrnavy]

I was using Hs-6 and 231 " staying in the charts", watching my o.a.l., and using Frontier, Berry's and HSM copper plated bullets. I was using Winchester and PMC primers. I never go over max load. I stayed within 1.120 - 1.130 o.a.l. The Beretta PX4 Storm was the first to fracture. I noticed that the loads were very snappy, and then on one shot, the magazine blew out of the magwell, and the frame was cracked down the right side behind the mag release. Beretta stated that it was the ammunition, very bad service from Beretta.. 8 week return, gun was not repaired, not even attempted to offer any kind of repair. The Bay Eagle was firing fine, and after a box of copper plated bullet reloads, the slide lodged in at an angle inside the frame, and the magazine blew out of the magwell. Magnum Research repaired the pistol, in stalled new springs through out the gun.. at a cost of $158.00 and had it back by the end of the weak. I only blame myself for the reloads, maybe there is something that I missed, or that I am really not suppose to load the copper plated bullets as the same as FMJ "especially in .40". I know that I will only reload FMJ for now on and just pay a little more. After the damage and shipping, it would have been cheaper for me to have just waited for FMJ bullets. I clean and scrub my guns after every shooting day.. I am very particullar about my guns staying clean.

 

[JO JO]

I load lots of plated never an issue , I am curious what kind off brass and how many times fired I once had a bad bath of rp brass that would allow set back very easy tossed the lot of it. I always do the try to push th bullet in with my thumb with each reload that how I noticed the bad lot of rp brass if I had not cought that at the reloading bench I may of had a kaboom too ?

 

[Havok7416]

sdrnavy, did you fire both of these guns with the same batch of ammo or did this occur with two separate loads?

 

[rcmodel]

Regardless.
Plated bullets didn't blow up or crack the frame on two good strong guns.

There is more to this story the OP hasn't told us yet.

rc

 

[Havok7416]

RC, I agree. There's obviously plenty of plated bullets that have been put down range that can prove that point.

 

[Ex]

I agree with the lack of data. While I have had issues with plated (tumbling) and choose not to use them, I see no reason that anything but an overcharge would result in blown out magazines and cracked frames.

Doesn't all add up.

 

[LiveLife]

KaBoom occurs when:

- Double powder charge (reloading practice?)
- Overcharge of powder (mixed up load data?)
- Overpressure from bullet setback during feeding/chambering (poor neck tension?)
- Case wall failure from weakened/thinned case (brass reloaded multiple times and shot, perhaps with hot loads, in less case base supported chambers)
- Case wall failure from defective/damaged brass

Since OP experienced KBs with more than one pistol, I am more inclined to suspect the reloads (finished rounds) than bullets (projectiles).

Yes, we NEED more information. Until then, root cause analysis suspicion would be unsafe reloads.

Due to these reasons, I inspect KB prone 40S&W cases more carefully and check for neck tension/bullet setback even more carefully. With mixed range brass with unknown reload history/condition of brass, I prefer to use mid-to-high range load data and reserve verified once-fired brass for near max/max loads.

Be safe. We have simply read one too many "KaBoom" and "Funny thing happened at the range" threads ...

 

[sdrnavy]

They were all the same batch, with mixed headstamps. I check each case after charge on a single stage press. Most of the loads were loaded with frontier plated bullets and hs-6. Magnum research sent the case back after extracting it from the barrel, and it was car - bon case. It had a hole blown at the base where the feedramp was. That is what hit me in my eye. The slide was partially open when it lodged in the frame. The Beretta case had the whole base blown off of it.

 

[sdrnavy]

I was going by fmj load data

 

[sdrnavy]

Beretta customer service was far from acceptable. They didn't even offer a bit of advise or offer to sell me another frame..nothing. They were very short on the phone. Magnum research called me and let me know what it was going to cost and repair it, and gave me a new magazine and a new hard plastic box at no charge. Customer service was excellent with magnum research. Sent the pistol to them and received it back in the same week

 

[Havok7416]

Why do you think it was the plated bullet that caused this damage? It's not like a regular bullet will simply instantly disintegrate and block the barrel.

 

[sdrnavy]

Because this has never happened to me at all until I used plated bullets

 

[bocefus78]

Will you share your load data? Do you have any pictures of the cases? If you are blowing handgun cases into multiple pieces, and damaging multiple guns, something is seriously overpressure and we are trying to help determine the reason.
It may be bad brass, bullet setback, or an overcharge.
All of the above will cause the same thing to happen....even with FMJ projectiles.

 

[ku4hx]

In my opinion, there's a flip side to this story we're not getting ... whatever. I've loaded and fired thousands of 40 S&W rounds in various guns and I've never had a problem That includes cast, jacketed and most recently plated bullets.

The OP is correct in one area: be safe and don't just jump to max or near max loads. But then, that's what published "Starting" loads are for.

 

[sdrnavy]

I will post pictures when I get home from work. I tried to post them on here last night,but this web site was hard for me to figure out how to.