Reloading smokless cartridges with Pyrodex or Black Powder?

[Don McDowell]

RpNY I shoot a number of the bottle neck cartridges of the blackpowder era. I can tell you that the case that comes out of the chamber is a lot more of a pronounced shoulder and neck than the unfireformed case that goes in. Much like the 30-30, if you look at the empty case that comes out after firing a factory load it's got more of a shoulder.
Still no matter how sharp the shoulder angle, blackpowder or the substitutes are not likely to damage a modern rifle with an unobstructed bore.
If you have evidence, real evidence, not bs urban legend nonsense, put it up for the rest of us to see, because there is no shortage of folks that do shoot bp in a variety of cartridges with no ill affects.

 

[RPRNY]

Fine. Advise the OP on all the modern cartridges he should load with Pyrodex. I look forward to learning and seeing the .308, the 30-06. 221 Fireball and the 7mm SAUM all loaded so loaded so and going swimmingly. The chap said he had not considered that BP cartridge loading might require different equipment but you go right ahead because just anyone can do it, right.

This was not an esoteric discussion of a few people's experience with black powder cartridge reloading. Read the OP.

 

[Don McDowell]

Pyrodex you treat the same as blackpowder. I read the op's post and all the uninformed hysteria that followed.
Just not going to cause damage to any modern rifle chambered in any modern cartridge with either bp or the subs. The stuff just doesn't build enough pressure to cause harm, so unless he plugs a gas system with fouling there is just nothing that can be hurt.
Velocity isn't going to be real hot, and accuracy may or may not happen, but it can be done.
Cleanup will be a huge shock to him the first time, but after that it'll be clear sailing.
Still waiting for imperical evidence that loading with black or the subs is going to cause damage to any cartridge firearm other than the possible gas system stoppage..

 

[Bwana John]

This was not an esoteric discussion of a few people's experience with black powder cartridge reloading. Read the OP.

Actually, because so few people actually do it, it is a rather esoteric topic and the OP is thankfull for most of the posts so far.


Now, I just gotta remember to not be reloading with BP on the progressive press.

 

[Don McDowell]

Bwana if you go to one of the bpcr sites and ask about powder measure, progressive presses etc, you may find some answers that will cause a major melt down elsewhere...

 

[Bwana John]

Don,
Ya really wanna cause a melt down....

My buddy has a M-3 37mm Towed Anti-Tank Cannon, and we can make projectiles, have used a 50 BMG primer adapter, but cannot find the correct powder for it any more.......

I realize its not gonna have the velocity but what do you think about a case fulla 1F?

 

[Don McDowell]

Bwana get ahold of some cannon powder from Powder Inc.

 

[Don McDowell]

Also if you are around Phoenix, might get ahold of Steve Rhoades at Arizona Sharpshooters.com, he may be able to assist you some.

 

[RPRNY]

454 Casull Star Line brass 2x fired, 380 gr slick paper patched to .456" over 40 grs (volume) Old Eynsford. Fired from H&R Classic Carbine rifle reamed to 454 Casull. Couldn't have happened. Right, Don? Let me guess? Not a good enough example because nobody died.

Advice has consequences. When someone starts a thread saying they don't have experience with black powder cartridge loading, err on the side of caution. What the Red Army may have done or your experiences gained over years are not the basis for good advice under the circumstances.

I ask the Mods to let Don have his angry rebuttal and then lock it up.

 

[rsrocket1]

Look into Blackhorn 209 and Alliant BlackMZ. Blackhorn 209 is as clean as smokeless in a muzzleloader (about the same smoke as a .308 in my 50 cal break action). It also cleans up like smokeless with Hoppes #9. The problem is that it requires a 209 shotshell primer so a standard rifle or pistol primer might not set it off. A number of sidelock muzzleloaders have been successful in setting BH209 off with a small igniter charge of pistol powder or fast black powder. YMMV as well as your gun and fingers.

BlackMZ ignites easier, but is water soluble and leaves a bit more fouling than BH209 and it smokes as much as black powder. That being said, it costs 1/2 as much as BH209.

If I wanted to experiment, I'd try with a full case (or maybe a case filled through a drop tube) of BlackMZ through my Stainless Service Six. The velocities will probably be very wimpy and the smoke should be really fun. However, I have a good stash of Unique, Red Dot and Bullseye and you can't beat a penny per round of powder with these.

 

[tyeo098]

454 Casull Star Line brass 2x fired, 380 gr slick paper patched to .456" over 40 grs (volume) Old Eynsford. Fired from H&R Classic Carbine rifle reamed to 454 Casull. Couldn't have happened. Right, Don? Let me guess? Not a good enough example because nobody died.

Advice has consequences. When someone starts a thread saying they don't have experience with black powder cartridge loading, err on the side of caution. What the Red Army may have done or your experiences gained over years are not the basis for good advice under the circumstances.

I ask the Mods to let Don have his angry rebuttal and then lock it up.

You sir need to settle down.

Split cases happen. I had one happen just Friday with some 38 spl reloads I was running. Old Western brass. Not a big deal my Model 66 ate it right up.

(And that was a straight-wall case, wasn't your argument against BP in bottle-neck cases?)

 

[Don McDowell]

Split case from a reamed handi.... sloppy reaming job, hard brass.. Looks of the ring on the case mouth case was to long to start with. Or possibly a wet chamber.

But alas a 454 isn't a bottleneck case, and still don't see any thing that would be anything much but poor gunsmithing, or bad brass, and certainly not anything to do with black powder in a bottlenecked cartridge.

 

[Bwana John]

I ask the Mods to let Don have his angry rebuttal and then lock it up

And I ask the Mods as the OP to keep it open please.

I have noticed the data available for BP and synBP on the net is for strait wall cases, or at the most cases with "alot" of body taper.

Again, I am thank full for most of the information provided so far, and most of my interest is academic. Ive got a BP rifle and dont shoot it much because of the clean up, and my wife dosent like how the bathtub smells after I clean the rifle in it!

RPRNY, Ive had cases split and full case head separations using smokeless powder so your analogy is not as pertinent to BP, however do I appreciate all the points you have brought up in your posts so far, accept to censor information.

by the way... SHOOTING AND RELOADING CAN BE A DANGEROUS SPORT! BP ESPECIALLY!

And does anyone have a stash of powder for a WWII era 37mm Towed ?

 

[Sam1911]

And so it shall stay open. Great thread on an interesting topic!

We need to share good info, not spread fear and doubt in the face of well-considered evidence to the contrary. Carry on...safely!

 

[AABEN]

I load 45 LC with Gortex FFF. I have not try Pyrodex Pistol Powder yet.

 

[Sam1911]

454 Casull Star Line brass 2x fired, 380 gr slick paper patched to .456" over 40 grs (volume) Old Eynsford. Fired from H&R Classic Carbine rifle reamed to 454 Casull. Couldn't have happened. Right, Don? Let me guess? Not a good enough example because nobody died.

Hmmm... How many cases have I tossed out that looked just like that, after being fired with a mild smokeless load? Hundreds.

In fact, I've found ammo that I've loaded in split cases I'd missed. It fired fine and THEN I tossed the case out. (Not that I recommend that practice, just that I've done it without any harm at all.)

Seeing a split case like that after firing a black powder charge wouldn't tell me anything at all about black powder in cartridges. After all, the pressures are so much lower than most smokeless ammo produces, there's quite a bit of a built-in safety factor.

 

[tyeo098]

Moral of the story?

Pack as much BP as you can in the case, air is the enemy.

Post some pictures!

Just take this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...e-write-up-quot-My-homemade-black-powder-quot
and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZENTes2jZQc (I've tried this in 45ACP with mixed results... 5/10 fired but my they were nasty hangfires, 1/4 second, still trying different methods)
Cast some boolets, and you have the 100% self sufficient Mosin Nagant! Powder shortages matter no more!

 

[rclark]

I too get occasional split cases with normal loads that go full length of case. No biggie. I just threw out 3 .44 Special cases with split mouths Saturday in fact.

Nothing more to add as all has been covered, I think .

 

[tex_n_cal]

It's been a few years since I posted here, but I followed a link over from another site. I got into black powder cartridge reloading a few years ago, mainly because I am a single shot collector, and a good Sharps is one Holy Grail of single shots.

Black powder won't match smokeless velocities. But big bullets at moderate velocity are effective killers on game, and a well set up BPCR can be surprisingly accurate. Very low velocity variations are the norm.

one example on game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE

As far as all the horror stories go about cleaning, realize that mercuric primers were a big problem at the time, and that continued into the smokeless era. I've seen guns that never saw black, have substantial pitting in their barrels. With modern primers, room temperature water is sufficient, followed by rust inhibitors for storage.

If you can't manage to handload smokeless, then BPCR probably isn't for you, but it is an interesting, and rewarding experience for serious shooters.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Cherokee Rod and Gun Club Black Powder Cartridge Matches are open to any cartridge firearm modern, antique or replica loaded with BP or BP substitute. I'll admit that rifles in .45-70 and .38-55 tend to dominate the matches.

Matches were often won by Jim Branham using an 1888 Commission [strike]Mauser[/strike] Rifle in 8x57mm, a bottleneck case. He even developed a usable BP load in .223 Rem (bolt action rifle only) for 100 yd bullseye target (I think he did it on a dare), another bottleneck case. But he had problems knocking over 200 meter steel rams with a .223 bullet.

I and my son fired .30-30 Winchester loaded with PyrodexRS, PyrodexP and TripleSeven in Marlin 336 rifles. A few other shooters fired BP loads in .30-30 in Winchester 94 and Savage 340 rifles. Bottleneck case.

I experimented with BP loads in .303 Brit with cast bullets but never fired it in competition. Bottleneck case.

In competition I fired a 6.5x52mm Carcano with 50gr FFg volume equivalent of Pyrodex or TripleSeven. With .264 jacketed bullets with channelure and pulled Italian service bullets with channelure (channelure painted with borebutter) it fired as a repeater, and with .268 jacketed bullets w/o channelure the barrel had to be swabbed between shots for the cartridge to chamber. My Carcano with a 100 yd target from a BP match:

7,62x25mm is another bottleneck case that I have loaded with BP substitute. My C96 with a very worn oversize barrel used with .312" jacket bullets over 1.0cc Triple Seven (25 yd target):

All those rounds fired from bottleneck cases loaded with BP and BP substitutes and we're all still walking about on the top side of the soil.

Black Powder explodes while Smokeless Powder burns, but a full case of BP still develops less pressure than a full case of Smokeless. A full case of smokeless in a BP cartridge like .38 Spl or .45-70 will blow up a gun.