Reloads in a Glock

[LiveLife]

CZ57, I just posted on that thread. Can you shoot reloads out of factory Glock barrels? I have. So, why are there continuing concerns of KaBoom(KB) and reloads in Glocks?

It is true that Gen3/Gen4 have better case base support than Gen1/Gen2 barrels at the ramp area. However, Glock chambers are still quite generous and there's still an area near the ramp that doesn't fully support the case base (BTW, this area is now comparable to many other factory barrels). I think the generous chamber is still an issue as I see bulged 40S&W cases (bulge 2/3 way down the case wall) with new factory ammunition and high range to near max reloads. If the bulging and resizing of the case wall is repeated using near max/hot loads, I believe it will weaken the brass and contribute to case failure.

I have shot a lot of 40S&W reloads in my factory Gen3 Glock barrels using jacketed/plated bullets at mid to high range load data and W231/HP38. The cases usually show no bulges or very slight bulging. In recent years, I have used Lone Wolf barrels in my Glocks for added margin of safety due to their tight chambers and improved case base support at the ramp area. Also, I am now happily shooting lead bullets for reduced cost of reloading.

Here's a repost from the other thread:

I pulled the trigger and immediately felt a sting on the inside of my right hand. I looked down and the magazine had been blown out the bottom of the gun and a piece of the magazine release fell onto the ground.

Yup, sounds like a classic Glock KB (case base fails and escaping gas blows out the magazine and mag release/internal parts also get damaged).

The load used was 4.5gr of Red Dot (max in Alliant manual is 5.1gr) behind a 170gr round nose bullet.

Alliant's website currently don't list Red Dot for 40S&W. It doesn't matter whether your load was mid range or near max. The case base failure could occur from weakening of brass with repeated bulging and resizing of the case or other factors.

Even though you are careful about your reloads and use mid-range load which may not bulge the case, if you pickup range brass, you could have picked up someone else's brass that's been over-stressed or reloaded enough times with bulge/resize cycles to weaken the brass.

I pick up range brass and this is the reason why I use Lone Wolf barrels in my Glocks. Case base support is better than any other factory barrels I have seen and the tight chamber minimizes the case expansion to the point that my high range 40S&W loads take hardly any effort to resize. Spent case walls are very straight.

 

[GLOOB]

I buy once fired brass and after I fire it in a Glock, I leave it.

A lot of that once-fired stuff you are buying was shot in a Glock, especially that stuff that comes from LEO ranges. Then some of the brass you leave on the ground might be sold to someone else as once-fired.

My brass looks fine after firing in a recently manufactured G27, and I'm shooting relatively stout handloads. I sometimes have to run a batch of purchased brass through a Bulge Buster BEFORE I shoot it. Afterwards, it's no longer necessary. So my Glock is essentially "un-Glocking" brass - brass which may have been originally "Glocked" by pistols other than Glock.

 

[357 Terms]

I've shot thousands of mid range reloads outta two different gen 3 22's. Never noticed excessive bulging of the case. I dont own a Glock now but all the brass I shoot outa my 40XDm was shot outa a Glock. I always used jacketed bullets and never had a problem.

 

[onebigelf]

I have no problem shooting my reloads out of my Glock 19. I think lead is fine at lower velocities and in lower round counts between good barrel cleaning. I'd not worry about 50-100 rounds of cast lead at standard velocity loads, but I wouldn't run 5-600 rounds at a pistol course. At some point there is probably an issue and I'm not sure where that point is. I don't really want the pistol telling me! With jacketed bullets I have no problem loading to +P and trusting it. In fact, I trust my hand-weighed and babied reloads more than I would factory ammo. NO factory is going to evidence the same care of every round that I do and the gun will handle it just fine.

John

 

[vsteel]

I have over 1000 rounds of lead reloads fed through my 17. I also have not had issues with excessive leading in the barrel. I shoot at lead velocities, shoot hard lead, and it is sized for .355. I am not sure how many remember but about 20 years ago there was a lot of press about not shooting lead down the barrel of a Glock. The problems with guns boiled down to the following.

1. Way to soft of lead/way to high of velocities with lead reloads.
2. Firing lead reloads as fast as you could to the point you had the barrel so hot it was hard to hold onto the gun causing increased leading.
3. It was recommended a long time ago that you shoot .355 lead with the glocks and not the common .357 sizing.
4. Every glock 9mm that I seen blow up with lead reloads was the barrel had EXTREME leading. As in peeling large chunks out of the barrel with a screwdriver.

If you really want to search where this came from look in old Guns and Ammo, American Rifleman, and Gun Tests from the late 80s to the early 90s.

The reason they say no reloads is because you always have the one dumbass out there how doesn't know what he is doing or says "aww it will be fine." He then does something stupid and blows up his gun and then tries to win the white trash lottery by winning a lawsuit.

 

[KBintheSLC]

So, why are there continuing concerns of KaBoom(KB) and reloads in Glocks?

Because lately, people seem to prefer blaming everyone and everything in the world for their own stupid mistakes. I have serious doubts that the KB would have happened if the reloads were done right. And any gun will KB if some knucklehead runs a double charge.

 

[CZ57]

CZ57, I just posted on that thread. Can you shoot reloads out of factory Glock barrels? I have. So, why are there continuing concerns of KaBoom(KB) and reloads in Glocks?

Chamber support has improved but is that enough? There is still a question of adequate support. The OP stated he could not have double-charged the case because a double-charge would overflow the case. I believe the problem is two-fold. Case support, or lack thereof combined with a powder that is very fast burning. The .40 S&W is a naturally fast pressure peak cartridge and I believe that fast burning powders should be avoided in loading it Combining a fast powder with a naturally fast pressure peakin cartridge is risky in my opinion. And if you pick up range brass you may pick up a case that is bulged and not notice it if you aren't very careful in inspecting it.

I am not a Glock hater, but am not a fan of their .40 S&W pistols because of the chamber support issue. Glocks aren't the only pistols that have Ka-Booms I know of a fellow that had one in a CZ-75 with a fully supported chamber. He was also using a very fast burning powder and may have picked up a bulged case/cases. I have handloaded tens of thousands of .40 S&W without incident. To be honest, none were fired in Glocks and NONE were loaded with ultra fast powders like Bullseye or Red Dot, the powder in question. Powders like V-V 3N37, Power Pistol, Vectan SP-2 and Ramshot Silhouette were used in my handloads. I shoot very little factory ammo. Ramshot Silhouette was formerly Winchester Action Pistol or WAP. I believe this is the powder that Winchester used/uses in load development for the .40 S&W. It is manufactured by Primex.

So, my advice is to stay away from very fast burning powders when developing full power .40 S&W loads. If you are loading light/medium loads there are many powders that can be used but I would tend to avoid anything faster than say W-231.

 

[porterdog]

Read between the lines, Circuit Rider. Sure seems like there can be an issue if the right elements are in place.

 

[Regular Joe]

There is no cure for stupid. I know what I'm doing, and I launch 124 gr. HP's at just bout 1,250 fps from my G-19. Stupid people will never attain this claim., but they may well become subject to it. Thank God.

 

[Johnny Lightning]

I have a G17 and now shoot all reloads. I am also new to reloading but have not had any problems w/ the loads I have made. I use Berry's plated bullets in my lee turret press and they are cheap and function perfectly if you load them properly. I would not use lead bullets in the glock because of the special barrel design which will accumulate lead and then have the possibility of a kaboom . Some people say they do shoot lead out of their glock factory barrels but then clean their glocks after every 100rnds or so...I dont think it is such a good idea...If you want to shoot lead then get an aftermarket barrel that is meant to shoot lead.

 

[wally]

Yawn. I have over 4000 lead reloads out of my model 23. No problems what so ever.

Have you done any jacketed full power loads since? That is where the issue is supposed to come up.

I don't shoot Glocks much as they don't fit me well but when I do its usually 100-200 rounds of hard cast lead followed by 5 or 10 rounds of cheap FMJ (Glock 17L or 21). Never had any troubles.

 

[GLOOB]

Have you done any jacketed full power loads since?

I somehow doubt he meant 4000 lead reloads without cleaning!

usually 100-200 rounds of hard cast lead followed by 5 or 10 rounds of cheap FMJ (Glock 17L or 21).

Bore brush? Get one, use one, don't kB your gun?

 

[JRC45AUTO]

Will one of you guys please tell me how a Glock barrel would lead-up more than a standard barrel?
Seems to me the slicker polygonal barrel would not lead as bad as a cut rifeling barrel.
I've shot many hard cast bullets thru my 9mm, 40cal & 45acp Glocks and have not noticed any leading whatsoever.
My Colt compensated race gun shows more leading than a Glock.
To be honest, I coat all my guns barrels & chambers and friction points with Kano Molyfilm dry moly lubricant. We use this a lot on Gulfstream aircraft.
Good enough for a 60 million dollar aircraft is good enough for a handgun.
Lead simply doesnt stick to this stuff.
I load just below the max loads so I don't have to worry about power factors at a match.
I feel it defeats the purpose to use whimp loads when practicing.
I usually pick a load for a gun, dial is sights and only shoot it exclusively.
For those who are buying into the Glock KB crap, think about this.
I load in Winchester cases, a 155gr Hornady XTP on top of 10.0gr of Longshot.
This is one of the best shooting rounds I have found for my G27.(1.5" @ 15yds)
I chronographed them at 1261 f/s from the baby glock G27.
If any case will fail it would be with this pocket rocket.
There are too many people out there with no experience with a Glock passing on crap that they have read.
Do you think any one that has blown up a pistol of any kind would tell that he might have had bullet setback due to a weak crimp.
If using fast burning powder, setback could blow a case easily.
Don't believe everything you read on the net about Glock KB's.

 

[easyg]

Use bare lead and reloads in your Glock at your own peril.

Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk just to save a few bucks.

 

[AK103K]

Seems to me the slicker polygonal barrel would not lead as bad as a cut rifeling barrel.

I always thought the same thing. I sometimes think its just all part of the fear frenzy that gets generated, and the internet just makes it worse.

I dont use lead in 9mm, simply because I tend to load them pretty hot, and dont want to deal with the leading, in any barrel. Same goes for any of the other calibers I load. I know lead bullets have improved a lot over the years, but I dont cast my own, and still usually only load them up to about 850-950fps max when I do load lead.

 

[JRC45AUTO]

Try the moly spray in your barrel.
I shoot lead at 900-1100 f/s and don't have the problem.

 

[LiveLife]

Will one of you guys please tell me how a Glock barrel would lead-up more than a standard barrel?
Seems to me the slicker polygonal barrel would not lead as bad as a cut rifeling barrel.

I found this to be the case with my Glocks. However, I have seen Glocks get leading in the barrel. It all depends on the bullet type used and powder/charge.

Even though I advocate the use of Lone Wolf barrels in Glocks for tighter chamber (to minimize case bulging) and better case base support at the ramp area, I do shoot lead reloads in factory Glock barrels. When I do, I inspect the barrels at around 200 rounds or so and clean as necessary.

I think a lot of Glock KB incidents involve people hearing and believing that "Glocks never need cleaning" and either did not clean the barrel or perhaps decided to do their own endurance tests using their/other's reloads. What I have seen shooting lead reloads in Glock barrels is that there is a gradual build up of fouling from bullet lube and gas-cut lead at the chamber end. When I inspect the barrel, this fouling build up shows as dark/black smeared deposit just forward of the chamber. This is what I look for and clean as necessary.

If this deposit is allowed to build up over time/many rounds, then it will partially obstruct the bullet as the powder is ignited. If this obstruction is significant, it may increase the chamber pressure beyond maximum limits. If there is any weakness in the case, the expanding gas will blow out at that weak point (often "Glocked" bulge at the base of the case).

Anyone shooting reloads, especially lead reload, should take this into consideration and like any other barrels used for shooting, clean regularly. I shoot 200-500+ rounds per range session and clean all of my barrels afterwards.

Be safe.

 

[LiveLife]

Here's a warning posted on Accurate Arms website with the latest generation barrel showing:

SPECIAL WARNING CONCERNING CHAMBER DIMENSIONS OF SEMI AUTO HANDGUNS THAT DO NOT FULLY SUPPORT THE CASE.

A potentially dangerous condition can occur with certain aftermarket modifications, and also certain factory-produced semi auto pistols that have chamber configurations that do not fully support the chambered cartridge case. This modification is incorporated or done to aid in the reliable feeding of the round from the magazine. Although it might be acceptable for newly manufactured ammunition, or new unused cases, a potentially hazardous condition can be created when cases are reloaded a second time or more.

After firing a round in one of these handguns, a deformed case can result. We recommend inspecting each case for a bulged or “pregnant” shape from the base of the main body towards one third to half of the case body, which is a sure sign that the case is not fully supported. Although this bulged part is reformed during resizing, the case strength could be weakened. The problem occurs when this part of the weakened case again lines up with the modified part of the chamber. This may cause the case to fail, which allows the gases to be ejected into the internal cavity of the weapon.

The loading data published by Western Powders, Inc. was developed in our ballistic laboratory in strict accordance with SAAMI testing methods and equipment, and does not exceed the pressure specifications. This information is safe for use in firearms which provide complete support of the case. Failure to fully support the case with cartridges of such intensity may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, separated case heads, or other consequences that may result in destruction/damage to the firearm and/or injury or death to the shooter and/or bystanders. This can happen with any powder irrespective of design and/or burn rate.

If you own a firearm in which the chamber does not fully support the chambered round and is producing the above mentioned symptoms, Western Powders, Inc. recommends that you either contact the firearm manufacturer to determine if the case is fully supported, or have a competent gunsmith examine the firearm and determine the amount of support provided to the case.

If your firearm does not provide complete support for the case, please take extreme care and refrain from reloading cases.

Here's my Lone Wolf 40S&W barrel as a comparison:

Here's a close up comparison of Lone Wolf G27 barrel and Gen3 Glock 27 barrel.

 

[wally]

Bore brush? Get one, use one, don't kB your gun?

If you are getting the kind of leading that could cause a dangerous pressure increase, a bore brush doesn't really do much. I know from experience relatively recently after shooting Remington Thunderbolt in a Ruger MKII and years ago from using hard cast bullets that weren't very hard in my 16" Uzi carbine. A Lewis Lead remover was a big help.

I've followed the "a few jacketed after shooting lead" dictum given to me by an old fellow at the range (now I'm that guy ) and have never had any leading issues since until the issue with Remington Thunderbolts a few years ago. I shot up what remained of the Thunderbolts by mixing 50 of them in with 150 of Federal. Obviously using the hottest jacket bullets you can find would be a very poor choice here.

I don't enjoy shooting Glocks enough for it to be a problem for me, but a bore brush coming out clean does not mean there is no lead buildup remaining -- you need to visually inspect the bore with a light and take further more drastic action if necessary.

I've never been a fan of "max loads" when reloading, but especially so with the .40S&W because of the propensity of poorly supported chambers and high normal pressures, Glock is not the only one here, and based on some chamber comparison photos posted in an old thread, not the worst.

 

[ny32182]

My G34 has never seen a factory round and probably never will.

I use exclusively range pickup brass. Scary stuff.

I do use jacketed bullets, and clean it about once a month or so, which works out to about once every 500 rounds, roughly.

 

[LiveLife]

Duplicate - added comparison photos on post #43.

 

[GLOOB]

but a bore brush coming out clean does not mean there is no lead buildup remaining -- you need to visually inspect the bore with a light and take further more drastic action if necessary.

I've never inspected the cleanliness of a bore brush! I just meant that a regular cleaning with a bore brush (and a lead solvent, if needed) will prevent lead fouling from building up to a dangerous level. Shooting an FMJ down a lead-fouled bore is one way to cause overpressure that's completely avoidable. If it works for you, then that's great. But if you ever change your lead handloads, you might want to inspect the bore before sending that first FMJ downrange, especially in .40 or .45.

Lead fouling will come out with the right brush. Bronze is harder than lead, so it's just a matter of finding the right brush. I heard a piece of chore boy also works.

Total sidetrack here, but the only time I had leading in a Glock was with factory loaded rounds from a major American company. I believe they were plated bullets, and the fouling only occurred in the last half inch of the barrel, not near the chamber. It certainly looked like lead. Most of it came out with regular cleaning, but the final bit didn't budge until I used an oversized bore brush push/pulled backwards! I had complete faith that the Tenifer would withstand the abuse, and the mirror finish remained intact.

 

[frankge]

With the low prices from Zero and Precision Delta - why bother with 9mm lead anymore? I load lead for 45 only now.

 

[W.E.G.]

Just checked price at Precision Delta.

34 cents per round for 9mm.
http://www.precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=P9MM115

You think THAT is a bargain???

I'm shooting the much-cheaper Russian stuff in my Glocks, and not bothering with reloading.

 

[LiveLife]

With the low prices from Zero and Precision Delta - why bother with 9mm lead anymore? I load lead for 45 only now.

I think the Glock KB issue has been centered around the higher pressure loads of 40S&W, regardless of bullet types used. The KaBoom in other post I was referencing involved a Glock 22.