Remington mismanagement

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Seedy Character, Apr 17, 2022.

  1. Seedy Character

    Seedy Character Member

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    The thread on the "new" RemArms, got me to thinking. 1 response was Remington propensity to abandon cartridges too soon, after spending untold $$$$$ on development and little on marketing.
    Not just from the last ownership fiasco, though they had some.

    What comes to mind;
    .244Rem. Introduced at some time a .243Win. Problem: barrel rate of twist.
    Rem was built to shoot 80 gr bullets and was VERY ACCURATE. Accuracy was good with 90 gr. 100 gr bullets would not stabilize.
    .243 was developed for 100 gr bullet.
    Rem had better round, Win had better sales.
    Rate of twist changed, name change to 6mmRem; too late.

    5mmRem rimfire Magnum. Lack of firearms chambered for it. Amazing cartridge. Didn't catch on. Much better round than the .17MRF.

    .30 AR, too much cheap 7.62x39, no marketing.

    .260Rem, amazing round. Mimics 6.5x55 ballistics (popular for over 100 years) using easy to get .308 brass. 6.5-.308 wildcat being shot by target shooters for years. Lack of guns chambered for the round. Should have been available in 700, 7600, 7400 and DPMS ARs.
    6.5CM comes along, boat loads of marketing and hype, history.

    7mm Rem Express, amazing cartridge, killed because REMINGTON didn't market the superiority over .270 Win and O'Connor hype.
    Remington releases the 7mm Rem Mag AND marketing, instant success. Renames 7mm Rem Express to .280 Rem. Too late

    .17 Rem, close but not quite.

    Others are out there, if I think about it. But, this much thinking gives me a headache.

    You have a favorite, that Remington failed to support?
     
  2. Archie

    Archie Member

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    I do agree with the short thinking and wrong twist problem.
    One can hope the 'new management' will think and process information more and better.
     
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  3. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    shooters have changed and everybody wants a 1:7 twist. For target shooting.
    I dont know, if I were Rem, set yourself apart with a line of high end 700's for the Sako/ Blaser croud, and then just make a whole bunch improved but very inexpensive 783's?
     
  4. 25-20 WCF

    25-20 WCF Member

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    Not quite accurate in details. The .280 Remington was introduced in 1957, 32 years after the .270 WCF. Loaded to sub-optimum pressures due to being chambered in the M740 (supposedly) with ammo priced above the ubiquitous .270, it was crippled from the get-go and could not compete with the firmly-established cartridge. Renamed the 7mm Remington Express, introduced in 1978 to boost sales, was a terrible idea due to a name almost identical to the 7mm Remington Magnum. Large numbers of shooters just asked for “7 mm Remington” ammo, so after that fiasco, it was re-named…the .280 Remington.

    Really screwed up sure, but there is no amazing advantage of the cartridge over the .270, in spite if what .280 fanboys insist.




    .
     
  5. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Arguably the last 30 RAR assembled...

    [​IMG]
     
  6. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Double tap
     
  7. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Remington did mis-manage the 260, but it didn't happen that way. It was a repeat of the same issues with 224/6mm Rem.

    Remington envisioned the 260 as a whitetail cartridge and designed it to shoot 120 gr bullets. The 6.5X55 was designed around 160 gr RN bullets. The 2 aren't even close to the same.

    The long range shooters started experimenting with 260 and found that when loaded with 140-150 gr high BC bullets it worked great at long range. The problem was that there were no factory rifles that would chamber and fire these cartridges. The twist was wrong and the cartridges were too long to fit in the magazine or chamber. They were building modified rifles with custom barrels to make it work.

    This was a case where shooters went to Hornady and showed them what they were doing and asked Hornady and rifle manufacturers to develop a factory cartridge and rifle that would duplicate what they were doing with the 260. This wasn't a case of a manufacturer making something and throwing it at consumers. Consumers went to the manufacturers and asked them to make something. And it was never marketed. They sold on word of mouth and performance.
     
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  8. Moparnut

    Moparnut Member

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    As far as the new RemArms goes, they may be trying to start small get the operation going and then expand.
     
  9. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    Could be I absolutely love mine. I don't shoot it much but I got it online closeout and a few months later they were gone. I have a lifetime supply of brass and even some factory loads I'll never shoot. You need ammo hit me up in PM.
     
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  10. High Plains

    High Plains Member

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    I have a FN bolt action 280 Rem. Never has it used the under powered loads that mimic the factory loads. It excels with the heavier pills, such as 154-168gain hunting and target bullets with the slow burning powders. It likes virtually everything I toss into it.
    A buddy had a 260 Rem that he developed his own loads for. Performance wise, it was just like what I was getting from my 6.5 Creedmoor.
    Big Green screwed the pooch on the 280 by limiting the chamber pressure to what would work in their semi auto rifles rather than (1) beef up their own designs or (2) accept the fact some loads are better than others, especially since it had to displace the long-standing 270 Win, which it did not. The 280 is still a fine cartridge.
    The 260 Rem suffered from a poor line up of ammo, something Hornady made sure didn’t happen with the 6.5 Creedmoor.
     
  11. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I have a bead on one that was converted to .223. I guess they had a barrel and bolt made for the proprietary upper. They also have the components to bring it back to 30 Rem AR. Thinking about it.

    ………..

    244 Remington later renamed to 6mm Remington. A renaming fiasco as well as bungling the twist.

    280 Rem renamed to 7mm-06 renamed to 7mm Rem Express and renamed back to 280 Rem. What a colossal cluster of confusion. And that’s just the name of the cartridge.

    I like with the 25-06 they were actually successful technically. However, it had long been a popular wildcat up until that point so how could they lose.

    Remington is better off dead.
     
  12. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    The fantastic Nylon 66 should of never been discontinued.

    The polymer molds wore out by the 90s and the clowns at Big Green decided it wasn’t worth it to rebuild them.

    Instead, they introduced such “classics” like the hideous Viper .22 rifle :barf:

    Luckily I’ve got three pristine Nylons tucked in the safe, and one of them still sees regular use. Finest open sighted field .22 yet IMHO.

    I wouldn’t touch any new Rem Arms product with a 20 foot pole.
     
  13. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Thanks but I have a good supply of factory ammo and a set of dies for when that supply is used up. More than enough to burn what is left of that barrel up. I assembled mine from a mix of new and used parts all headed for a scrap bin somewhere. It was assembled in January 2020, think about that. I am pretty sure I have one of the last one assembled.

    The lower may have been from an R-15 but the upper could not be easily converter to 223/556. I would be really surprised if someone went to the expense to create such a conversion given how cheap a standard 223/556 uppers and barrels are. Nearly everything about the 30 RAR upper is proprietary. I can see someone converting it to 223/556 The only thing in common is the Bolt Carrier. The upper, bolt, barrel extension, barrel nut and barrel are all proprietary. The lower is standard. My 30 RAR is built on a standard Bushmaster lower.

    And there is zero chance you will every see an R-15 come out of Rem Arms LLC. Remember this same man (Ken D'Arcy) that removed all AR from Remington Product line up (R-15, R-25, and R25 GII) shut down Bushmaster and DPMS, a year before Remington died, is still in charge of Rem Arms LLC. They sold every AR part Remington they had for pennies on the dollar to places like CDNN in early 2020. CDNN was selling 30 RAR upper/lower/handguard sets at one point but without all the other proprietary parts they were just a camo lower. I would be willing to bet that Rem Arms LLC will never make another AR while that leadership is in charge let along a proprietary upper for 30 RAR. The engineers that designed that upper and cartridge are long gone and I suspect they do not have the design documented well enough to make a new one from scratch without a lot of new engineering. Just a hunch...
     
  14. Oldschool shooter

    Oldschool shooter Member

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    The 6.5 and 8mm Remington Magnums. Not sure why they didn't take off, probably not enough marketing.
     
  15. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    @mcb
    Maybe but here is a snippet from the ad:

    Either way my only interest lies in its ability to be a 30 Rem AR. I’m unsure how that will work. He said he has the “pieces” to bring it back to 30 Rem AR. I presume that would be the barrel, bolt, and magazine.
     
  16. Remington1911

    Remington1911 Member

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    Story I was told is that when the rights expired on the "plastic" or nylon that DuPont owned, and remember Remington was owned by DuPont, after it expired they stopped making it. I am also told that the "clone" Nylon 66 uses a different kind of plastic. I really don't know if any of it holds water. A quick google said they kept making them into 1989, and started in 1959, 30 years so I think that kinda adds up.

    I don't remember how Remington was doing up to the 90's when the hound of hell (really) bought them....I don't think they are doing bad.

    Really IMHO the downfall of any company can be bet on if an "investment" company buys them....sure death.

    Back to the cartridges, I don't think it is a remington thing, just a "thing". It happens and is not unique to remington.
     
  17. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Good luck, if you end up getting it I would love to see pictures on how the conversion was done.

    Some 450 Bushmaster magazine can be used to feed 30RAR with minor modification if that every becomes an issue.

    It will be interesting to see if the new owners of Remington Ammunition (Vista) continue to make small batches of ammo. I have my doubt but one load still shows up on their website the last time I searched for it so we'll see.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2022
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  18. 1948CJ2A

    1948CJ2A Member

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    Probably for every failure or two... or three, they had a success story. They were good at taking wildcats and standardizing them (see: 22-250, 25-06, 7mm-08, etc.). They also had huge success with the 7mm Rem Mag in 1962, which overshadowed the 264 Win Mag and its greatness. Payback for the 243/244 rat race? Who knows...
     
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  19. Remington1911

    Remington1911 Member

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    I think it is not uncommon for a company to look at something and go.....you know we might do better. The 243 thing is perfect. Well this thing is really taking off, if we do something like it, and make it just a tick better people will drip it and move on to the next.....well no, it could be a good deal better and people still not move. There are many factors that go into making a great product.

    It is like why did the Model T last so long....well it had that track record, people know it, and liked it, it was not till it was really getting left behind that ford got pulled into the next step with a more modern car. Same thing can be said with colt and self contained cartridges, yes there was some patent stuff going on, but the company did drag its feet a bit on that. The gun world is full of things like that....the famous Browning and Auto 5 story.
     
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  20. mcb

    mcb Member

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    Don't forget 300 AAC Blackout and 450 Bushmaster. Remington managed to not screw those up to badly.
     
  21. wbm

    wbm Member

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    Agree. I still have mine.


    Would ya with a 30?
     
  22. 3Crows

    3Crows Member

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    I do not see that Remington makes any guns of any type, just ammunition:

    https://www.remington.com/about-us.html

    There is this outfit:

    https://remingtonarmsusa.com

    The best thing Remington Arms USA LLC could have done would have been to not use the Remington name. Just call the products the Model 700, Model 870 etc.

    Not sure either of these have anything to do with the former Remington Company that went into bankruptcy and was completely sold off in parts and pieces to new entities.

    3C
     
  23. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    The .280 Remington is not a 7mm 06 and I don't think Remington ever called it that.

    Back in the 20th, when there was a good supply of 1909 Mausers with free sporter style floor plate latches, it was a popular caliber for deluxe hunting rifles. No changes needed to bolt face or magazine, the gunsmith could concentrate on making it look nice. Overloading was rife "My .280 will do anything a 7 Mag will up to 150 grain bullets." There were loaders reforming Winchester .270 brass to .280 because it was both thinner for more powder volume AND of harder temper for greater strength than RP cases. That is cutting edge, even ragged edge reloading.

    An old article by Col Townsend Whelen "Just a Little Bit Better" promoted the .280 bolt action, but concluded "If you have a good .270 or .30-06, there is no need to replace it, but if you are buying a new rifle, the .280 is just a little bit better."
     
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  24. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Looking back at the legal fights Remington has had over the safety of their products, the corporate culture is pretty clear to see.
     
  25. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Well there are instances, admittedly few and far between, of Remington making a batch of 700s with the 7mm-06 marking on them. I think late in 1978. They recalled them soon after to presumably change the barrel stamping or even rebarrel them altogether. Some still survive with that barrel marking apparently.

    Maybe just a trivial footnote in Remington’s history or maybe yet another marketing flub.
     
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