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Remington R51

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Ric, Jan 30, 2014.

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  1. Ric

    Ric Member

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    I was looking at this gun in Guns and Ammo today and can't help but think,
    Fixed barrel
    Recoil spring around the barrel
    Safety on backstrap

    It reminds me of an HK squeeze cocker but with a safety on the blackstrap instead of a cocking lever on the front. (But it is a lot cheaper than a P7)

    I don't know enough of the history to know which came first. The R51 or the P7 but they seem similar.

    What do you think?
     
  2. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    There is no connection between R51 and P7.

    The R51 is new, the P7 came out about 1980, the original PA51 about 1915.
     
  3. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    I think I told the gun store manager I want the first one they get.:)
     
  4. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    Yes, very different pistols. The P7 squeeze cocker actually cocks the striker. The R51's grip safety is like the 1911's.
     
  5. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I'd be interested to try one. It seems to me an attempt at competing with the Springfield XD-S series (specifically the size and caliber).
     
  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

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    Here's my theory as a Remington 1911 R1 owner. After having great success with their 1911 introduction a couple years ago, they wanted a conceal-carry companion for it. Same grip angle, same single-action trigger, so it's easy to transfer from one to the other. But they also wanted to keep the price down, because Remington serves a different price bracket than Colt and Sig do...and miniaturizing the 1911 platform is expensive. So going the Colt Defender route was a no-go. But they also didn't want to go super-modern and polymer because they wanted to appeal on a gut/nostalgia level to the same sorts of people who would buy a 1911.

    The Remington R51 checks all those boxes. It's an all-metal gun with a hundred-year backstory (just a veeeeery different hundred-year backstory than the 1911). It's got a single-action trigger. The grip angle looks to be the same. The snag-free design is great for conceal-carry, as is the lack of manual safeties. And the price point is what one would expect from a Remington.

    My only concern about it is reliability. The Pedersen action has been around for a hundred years, but nobody has put it in a production gun since like 1918? There may be a reason why. If it proves to be reliable, though, I'll probably buy one.
     
  7. IdahoSkies

    IdahoSkies Member

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    I thought one of the reasons why was that remington held the patent for this particular application.
     
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

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    Patents only last a couple decades (the exact amount has changed over the years, but it's generally been around 20 years). That's why everyone and their cousin can make AR-15s without Armalite being able to sue them; same with 1911s and Colt. The patent protections on the Pedersen mechanism expired before WWII.
     
  9. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    The HK was first shown in '76 The older brother to the R51 design , the model 51 first came about in in 1917. The latest remmy handgun is just modern version of the orginal with no influence from any other make or model. Now it does look like many other pistols brand took some design influences from the model 51 starting with the walther ppk but some 25 years later.
     
  10. SC Shooter

    SC Shooter Member

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    The new Remington R51 is patterned after Remington's Model 51 that was manufactured in the early 20th century and stopped production in 1933 I believe. It was designed by John Pederson, who John Moses Browning described as the greatest gun designer of all times. The R51 is basically bringing the technology into the 21st century.
     
  11. gc70

    gc70 Member

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    There was not much innovation in semi-auto handguns between WWI and WWII, except to satisfy government requirements (Walther PP/PPK/P38 in Germany, FN GP35 in France, Astra 400 in Spain). The situation was even worse in the US; with the exception of the 1911 supported by government contracts, semi-auto production died out during the Great Depression.

    The Pedersen action may prove to be a turkey that should have been left dead and buried. Or it may be successful and prompt other real design innovations in an industry that has been in a fairly narrow rut for decades.
     
  12. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I have no use for one as I'm totally happy with my XDs, but would like to handle one none the less. The bore axis does look low, and I am curious how that makes the recoil impolse feel. I'd like to feel up the trigger pull too.
     
  13. Eb1

    Eb1 Member

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    I want one, and will have one.
     
  14. MagnumDweeb

    MagnumDweeb Member

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    I'm going to wait till May or June to get one so that way if there are any bugs or defects they'll hopefully be identified or sorted by then. I definetly want one and am holding off on buying any semis till I get one if it turns out to be a gun largely free of defects and bugs.
     
  15. Orion8472

    Orion8472 Member

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    I will be getting one as soon as my local gunstore gets one in.

    On a side note, my gunsmith bro had a P7 [double stack] apart on his table last night. . . . and all I can say is . . . . "damn, that's a lot of tiny parts". He's one of those who are well versed in the P7.
     
  16. Ric

    Ric Member

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    I would think that with the fixed barrel it would be very accurate with a good load. If the reliability proves out, I will probably get one.
     
  17. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I would love to try one.
     
  18. wleggart

    wleggart Member

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    I visited with a fellow that was at the shot show and commented that Remington had a waiting line to shoot the R51. It was very long. The gun was handed from one shooter to the next and continued to shoot. Maybe a very carefully fitted gun or maybe a reliable design. I intend to get one to offer easy of concealability where my 1911 is just too big and heavy.
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

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    That's odd...I had heard that Remington wasn't allowing people to shoot the Remington R51 at Shot Show? I've found range day video of Glock letting everyone and their cousin take a try on the Glock 41 and 42, but haven't seen a single range day video of the R51.
     
  20. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    The R51 didn't make it in time for Media Day, but I didn't think it was absent for the whole show.
     
  21. Mitlov

    Mitlov Member

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    That makes me feel better. I had gotten the impression that they were not letting anyone shoot the R51 at Shot Show, which considering its February 2014 release date, concerned me. I really want this gun to be good, because on paper, it's exactly what I've been looking for for a daily carry gun.
     
  22. scramasax

    scramasax Member

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    All I can say is "Back to the future" Now if Colt would just make locked breach 1903 and 1908 pistols with the same feel as the originals I might get excited;)

    Cheers,

    ts
     
  23. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I just wonder where people wanting locked breech Pocket Hammerless Colts think the extra machinery is supposed to go and still keep the look and feel.

    Look at the Cylinder & Slide "1908" based on a cut up 1911 to see what it would end up like.
     
  24. MCMXI

    MCMXI Member

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    The fellow you visited with is full of it. I was at media day and asked the Remington folks about the R51 and why it wasn't available to shoot. They told me that it was being launched the next day so didn't have it at media day. I was very surprised by that response. The R51 was available in the Remington booth to handle during the four day show but that's all.
     
  25. barnbwt

    barnbwt Member

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    "I just wonder where people wanting locked breech Pocket Hammerless Colts think the extra machinery is supposed to go and still keep the look and feel."

    Precisely. I think this is actually the root cause of why the original 51 didn't find more acclaim. Even after all the press the R51 has gotten, you still get guys saying "it's like a PPK" even though it is neither DA nor straight blowback. People look at it, and think it'll be a straight blowback Spanish thing, meaning a cheap and uncomfortable gun.

    They look at a much beefier SIG setup with a very tall bore axis, and know they're getting more for their buck with that imposing profile rather than a svelt layout with few external controls. Bigger Gun Syndrome, applied to small(er) guns.

    If Remington were smart (if);
    -They would never use or allow the term "blowback" anywhere near the gun; most people don't care about the details, but know that equates to "cheap" whether the term is accurate or not for the design. "Fixed Barrel Recoil-Op" sounds much more legit, with Pedersen System/Hesitation Lock as a shorthand after initial explanation
    -They would have been very forthcoming about the dimensions, weight, and schedule; the shear amount of response to the initial announcement should have convinced their marketing boneheads that initial sales weren't going to be an issue, and that they should instead focus on meeting customer expectations. Delays/vaporware are nothing new and kind of expected of new products at this point, but being unprepared for SHOT so soon after their announcement should really result in a reprimand or two, if not more.
    -They would have kissed the rears of internet reviewers harder; this goes in hand with the extreme level of demand --the reviewers feel it too, and seem extremely slighted when they aren't chosen for shooting reviews. As it drags on, they and their readers are growing increasingly skeptical of the rollout schedule since the demo pistols seem to have very limited availability.
    -They would have done whatever it took to make a real promotional video; They had a static pistol in a camera-shy guy's hands while he mumbled for a few minutes, followed by at best 5 seconds of shooting footage. No depiction of takedown, no close ups of the gun (only glossy/rendered still shots), just pure, rampant speculation on the part of salivating internet enthusiasts. Maybe it was because it appeared to be freezing in AZ that day (speaker had a puffy jacket and the man-bear his gloved hands in pockets), but that video was ridiculously amateurish for what was essentially a product rollout. Obviously Remington's R&D hadn't even spoken to Marketing at this point.
    -They would make every last one of these early guns a "Special Retro Edition" with much nicer finish and initial tuning/testing than they ever do; catering to the monied/impulsive crowd that will buy up every initial offering regardless of price. The presence of these nice guns circulating online and in print will build a good rep for a very unfamiliar operating system, and a company in dire need of a cleaner image. Once the most influential (and loudest) early adopters are taken care of, then start banging out the "volks-pistol" version with the boring finish/sights/grips at a competitive price offered as an initial pre-order during the first luxury run. After that second rounds' kinks are worked out (people will be more accepting/dismissive of them since they are the 'cheap version'), Remington can then ask whatever price it needs for a then-established product to be market-competitive.

    And all this from an Engineer who's never taken a single marketing or business-economics class. I really wonder who was asleep at the switch over there, since this seems as lousy a rollout as the Steyr GB (hey, let's get these other idiots to make the first run; if it sucks, we won't get the blame when we go to sell our identical-looking pistol :banghead:). I wonder if the R&D team had their schedule bumped ahead by, oh, I dunno, six months! :mad:

    It's as though they are trying to meet the one expectation that customers are rightly incredulous about (that a radically new secret pistol line can be unveiled and distributed within 2 months), at the expense of all the other expectations that had them excited in the first place. "Who cares if they've been waiting 10 years for a 1911-killer; we need it tomorrow even if that means it won't hold a candle to one!"

    Could Freedom Group be trying to make a quick cash-grab off the R51 before moving on? :scrutiny:

    TCB
     
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