Report: 'Fat' Government Gun Contractor Is Criticized for Exclusive War Deal
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Killermonkey21
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Markbo: Honestly? I LIKE the M4. As in, its nice. Nicer than having to lug around a musket (thats what we, in the airborne community, call an M16, as we don't jump with them, too huge).
Its accurate, adaptable, customizable, and all that. The M4 with the rail system, flat top, and short barrel is nice, but still has its flaws.
Flaws in my (Airborne) opinion consist of:
1. Bad ballistics with short barrel, but not exactly fixable at our level.
2. VERY tight spaces and tolerances. A jam in a chamber that I can barely stick my PINKY in is a problem in a firefight.
3. Partition of the rail between the receiver and the barrel. Makes mounting larger scale optics (rifle scopes, night vision, laser illuminators, etc) tricky.
4. The sheer amount of CARBON in the chamber, along with the fine dust that you cannot avoid, after a trip to the range.
A piston system, in theory, would do wonders to fix problems 3 and 4. The government is afraid of change with regards to our outfitting. Yet, we seem to be a VERY adaptable fighting force, considering the environment here. In the past 18 years we've successfully transferred into the digital age, along with adopting SEVERAL new weapons systems along the way.
M249? M240B? MK-19? AT-4?
We've, for the most part, all received training in some shape or form with regards to these amazing weapon systems. Why would the change to a piston-operated system, or another weapon system that gives us the best chance on the battlefield be any different?
The Army has room to throw money at R&D for any untold number of projects, and adopting programs from there. Why do they reject amazing designs when it is the main weapon of the basic soldier they are considering?
For instance. Our new uniforms. ACU's. They SUCK. Crotches are weak. They stain easy. Velcro everything. Don't blend in with ****, besides maybe the urban areas...maybe. They are currently spending around $11 million to repair the crotch seams in the currently issued uniforms...I don't get it.
But once again, I am a Private. So I don't know anything
Its accurate, adaptable, customizable, and all that. The M4 with the rail system, flat top, and short barrel is nice, but still has its flaws.
Flaws in my (Airborne) opinion consist of:
1. Bad ballistics with short barrel, but not exactly fixable at our level.
2. VERY tight spaces and tolerances. A jam in a chamber that I can barely stick my PINKY in is a problem in a firefight.
3. Partition of the rail between the receiver and the barrel. Makes mounting larger scale optics (rifle scopes, night vision, laser illuminators, etc) tricky.
4. The sheer amount of CARBON in the chamber, along with the fine dust that you cannot avoid, after a trip to the range.
A piston system, in theory, would do wonders to fix problems 3 and 4. The government is afraid of change with regards to our outfitting. Yet, we seem to be a VERY adaptable fighting force, considering the environment here. In the past 18 years we've successfully transferred into the digital age, along with adopting SEVERAL new weapons systems along the way.
M249? M240B? MK-19? AT-4?
We've, for the most part, all received training in some shape or form with regards to these amazing weapon systems. Why would the change to a piston-operated system, or another weapon system that gives us the best chance on the battlefield be any different?
The Army has room to throw money at R&D for any untold number of projects, and adopting programs from there. Why do they reject amazing designs when it is the main weapon of the basic soldier they are considering?
For instance. Our new uniforms. ACU's. They SUCK. Crotches are weak. They stain easy. Velcro everything. Don't blend in with ****, besides maybe the urban areas...maybe. They are currently spending around $11 million to repair the crotch seams in the currently issued uniforms...I don't get it.
But once again, I am a Private. So I don't know anything
jrfoxx
Member
As some others have mentioned, I would question that the figures given for the cost of the rifles in question are accurate as to what the military is actually paying, as opposed to say, MSRP, or the cost to replace just 1 or some such. When I was in the Navy, just 2 years ago, I dug around thru the supply system, and the Navy listed M1 Garands at like $90, M14's ant a little over a hundred, hand grenades at around $4 a piece, etc (these numbers are rough estimates, I dont reme,ber EXaCT figures, but you get the point).So, I would be pretty surprised if the military is ACTUALLY paying $1500 per M4, for the many thousands of M4s they buy.I think the numbers are out of context, or just plain incorrect.Could be wrong though, it happens.
FYI-I was never able to find the famous $300 toilet seat (they went for a couple bucks in the system), but I did get to see what a Trident missile goes for in the system.....
I was SORELY tempted to order me up an M1 just to see if they'd screw up and actually deliver it to me unnoticed (my bet is 99.9% likely yes). But, I figured they would EVENTUALLY catch on (like 10 years later during some audit) and be a little upset.Oh well. I would have gladly reimburseed them the few hundred for an M1, M14, and a case of frags, so no harm no foul, right?
FYI-I was never able to find the famous $300 toilet seat (they went for a couple bucks in the system), but I did get to see what a Trident missile goes for in the system.....
I was SORELY tempted to order me up an M1 just to see if they'd screw up and actually deliver it to me unnoticed (my bet is 99.9% likely yes). But, I figured they would EVENTUALLY catch on (like 10 years later during some audit) and be a little upset.Oh well. I would have gladly reimburseed them the few hundred for an M1, M14, and a case of frags, so no harm no foul, right?
Mister Monkey - your opinion and the opinion of all our men and women in uniform are absolutely wanted and appreciated! Honestly. We obviously cannot trust the media to tell us what YOU guys think.
We cannot trust the administration to tell us the truth. Everyone has an agenda and telling the American public the truth is not it! I appreciate beyond my capability to tell you how much you are appreciated and honored.
The fact that the latest "Poll" says that only 17% of Americans now think the war on terror is important speaks volumes to me. The Sheeple will be lead by the whatever voice they want to hear, the truth be damned.
But with YOUR honest, on the spot, real world experience you can tell old fat guys like me what's the shizzle. Without YOU there is no U.S. and don't you ever think we don't appreciate it! I have M4's. More than one in more than one caliber. I don't have the problems you have, because my terrain is about 180° from yours. And I can stop any time I want and check them, clean them, tinker with them. Swap sights at will.
You can't do any of that and THAT is why this is of interest to me. Not because what I will want to get later, but because it is our armed forces arses on the line. We will never, ever get the straight skinny from the Pentagon. But you better believe I can give the straight skinny to my representatives. I am in contact with them all the time and if I feel right in going to them and telling them "THIS" is what we need, I will do it.
So you better believe your input is wanted. Honest!
We cannot trust the administration to tell us the truth. Everyone has an agenda and telling the American public the truth is not it! I appreciate beyond my capability to tell you how much you are appreciated and honored.
The fact that the latest "Poll" says that only 17% of Americans now think the war on terror is important speaks volumes to me. The Sheeple will be lead by the whatever voice they want to hear, the truth be damned.
But with YOUR honest, on the spot, real world experience you can tell old fat guys like me what's the shizzle. Without YOU there is no U.S. and don't you ever think we don't appreciate it! I have M4's. More than one in more than one caliber. I don't have the problems you have, because my terrain is about 180° from yours. And I can stop any time I want and check them, clean them, tinker with them. Swap sights at will.
You can't do any of that and THAT is why this is of interest to me. Not because what I will want to get later, but because it is our armed forces arses on the line. We will never, ever get the straight skinny from the Pentagon. But you better believe I can give the straight skinny to my representatives. I am in contact with them all the time and if I feel right in going to them and telling them "THIS" is what we need, I will do it.
So you better believe your input is wanted. Honest!
Killermonkey21
Member
Thank you, Markbo. I really appreciate that. Its nice to know SOMEONE appreciates what a junior enlisted has to say.
The way I see it is in regards to Special Forces and the like. THEY can get the better weapons (SCAR), amazing tech, and all that. But look at the M4. The front line didn't have M4's for YEARS. The SF community was using them in Somalia and who knows where else long before the main force was using them. Understandable. New weapon, expensive, SF is smaller, bigger budget.
But what happened after a few years, I might ask? The front line units (like the 82nd ABN Div) got them because they're next on the priority list. I can see the same thing happening with the SCAR system.
Stupidity is long winded, yes, but hopefully it can only stand so long before it gives over to common sense. We will see.
The way I see it is in regards to Special Forces and the like. THEY can get the better weapons (SCAR), amazing tech, and all that. But look at the M4. The front line didn't have M4's for YEARS. The SF community was using them in Somalia and who knows where else long before the main force was using them. Understandable. New weapon, expensive, SF is smaller, bigger budget.
But what happened after a few years, I might ask? The front line units (like the 82nd ABN Div) got them because they're next on the priority list. I can see the same thing happening with the SCAR system.
Stupidity is long winded, yes, but hopefully it can only stand so long before it gives over to common sense. We will see.
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