reporting ebay illegal activity

what would you have done?

  • Reported it to ebay.

    Votes: 87 46.0%

  • Turned a blind eye.

    Votes: 102 54.0%
  • Total voters
    189
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Yeah, you've said that about a half dozen times here. We get it. You (very passionately, evidently, and with A NEED FOR LOTS OF UPPERCASE WORDS) think he's a snitch. So he's a snitch. But at least he's an eBay (informal, not legally impactful) snitch and not an F-Troop snitch. Let's try to keep things in perspective, OK?

Oh, and I have a question for you: what's the difference between watching your brother's back, and being a snitch? How are we to police our own ranks and watch out for the neophyte gunnies who may get into trouble over things like this, if we're not willing to step in and call foul when things smell fishy?

KFH made a judgement call that was not completely founded in law (it is possible for the auction to be lawful) but founded in common sense and a fear of the possible outcomes if things went the wrong way (it is possible for the auction to be unlawful and as a result risk getting a newbie jacked up for life). Are you not willing to make judgement calls to cover the six of your brothers? Are we, as a community, supposed to be so a'feared of our .gov and their laws that we're not willing to point out informally when somebody may be in danger of blurring a line at the expense of their fellow gunnie?

There is a line between having a general philosophy of MYOB and being flat-out sociopathic....
 
Now I feel like a dirty snitch
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and you are! Not that that's a bad thing in certain circumstances. The eBay police (as you call them) are actually a group of dedicated professionals that enforce not only the Laws of the USA and the State of California, but also their own policies. In this case, I would suspect their policies as opposed to any law be it federal or state.

These dedicated professionals that you snitched to are actually working in a "listing" environment and this seller was actually contravening listing policies. Someone was correct that this auction would have magically disappeared. That's because Community Watch has filters in place that pickup on key words not to mention the thousands of emails they get daily (from people such as yourself) on items that are not allowed on eBay.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/firearms-weapons-knives.html

Had he/she contravened any laws, eBay's Safe Harbor team would have alerted local authorities and should it warrant any further investigation, that would be up to the state attorney's office and local law enforcement.

While it's true there are a lot of "scams" on eBay, it's because people do not understand how the process works. Yes, it can be quite complicated. Yes, people are arrogant enough to thinking they're getting a great deal (remember there's shipping on top of the price and buyer's rarely ask the question; how much to get to my place?).

As for the buyer, you don't know the laws as they relate to buying gun "housings" online, then DON'T BUY THEM. If you however really want an item, don't care that there MAY be a potential for legal issues, don't care if Kungfu or ANYONE ELSE knows for sure whether it was transacted legally
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I didn't want this to be about eBay but education is important when dealing with online auction sites. When you're buying something online, ask the seller lots of questions; you shouldn't be buying any firearms or parts on eBay anyway - use GB or some other specific item sites. And always use Visa - never Western Union or other cash agent like that - if you do your chances of contributing toward fraud will be greater! You know what they say - "a fool and his money are soon parted".:banghead:

In closing, if you feel like a snitch, I guess that's the hat you'd be wearing. But let me ask you this; where do you draw the line?

HiltonFarmer
 
I've always kinda felt I have plenty of my own business to tend to without feeling it necessary to stick my nose into other people's.

I'll leave that sort of thing to the government.

:cool:
 
I think you followed the High Road in reporting the sale of a receiver. According to the BATF, the main part of the firearm is the receiver.
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Oh yes. Fine way to be "Stirring up hate and discontent at BATF HQ". :rolleyes:
 
rbernie,

Actually that was the 1st time I called KFH a snitch, and that was in direct response to the previous post by Xavier; that aside, as that specific point is an irrelavent issue to how I obviously feel, and why I am passionate about this.

To answer your question:
what's the difference between watching your brother's back, and being a snitch? How are we to police our own ranks and watch out for the neophyte gunnies who may get into trouble over things like this, if we're not willing to step in and call foul when things smell fishy?
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...

The difference between watching a bud's back, and being a snitch is this: in the former case, when in a theater posted for NO CCW, you discretely point out to another guy CCing that "his weapon is printing/showing"; in the latter you tell the owner to call the cops 'cause "someone else has a gun, and though he hasn't broken a law, he MAY do something illegal" (or because you want the anti-gun $1000 reward).


The purpose of using UPPERCASE is for emphasis. Not many other choices when typing 'emotion', - non issue, but point taken.


You are right, though, I have been getting a bit carried away for this subject, including KFH actions, my apologies. It all comes back to what I have posted in the previous couple...

I don't like it when I, or millions of other fellow gunowners, get equated to being no better then the worst criminals by those who want to take away our gun rights, just because we might use them illegally. Antis assume we are no good. Don't know about you, but I take it personal. I think for us to do the same thing to other gun owners/dealers without knowing he did anything illegal is similiar.
 
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The difference between watching a bud's back, and being a snitch is this: in the former case, when in a theater posted for NO CCW, you discretely point out to another guy CCing that "his weapon is printing/showing"; in the latter you tell the owner to call the cops 'cause "someone else has a gun, and though he hasn't broken a law, he MAY do something illegal" (or because you want the anti-gun $1000 reward).
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We agree. :)

But your scenario isn't how the eBay thing went down. For example, KFH did not call the cops hisself or tell eBay to call the cops. Certainly, eBay isn't likely to call the cops since nothing illegal was actually done nor were any eBay patrons in potential danger. More to the point, your CCW example has no possible victim; nobody gets hurt and nobody else is liable to become a felon for the CCW holder's actions other than maybe himself. That's not the case in the example KFH used. In his example, although it was not guaranteed that the sale would be illegal, there was a reasonable degree of probability that it would be. Somebody else - one of us - was at risk.

A more statist mind might have seen that situation and reported it to the 'authorities'. KFH did not. He wrote to the seller and cautioned the seller as to the posible legal issues. The seller did not acknowledge the concerns. At that point, KFH had a choice - ignore the issue or not. The seller, by virtue of ignoring him, set a tone of 'I don't care' (and IMO that should set off warning bells in anyone's mind). So KFH called the host of the auction and reported the issues to them such that the auction - the ability to sell that particular item in that particular venue on that particular day - was cancelled. Nothing more dramatic happened. No black helicopters, no F Troop raids. I still fail to grasp how getting the auction pulled out of an overabundance of caution (in light of the seller's refusal to acknowledge the potential issues) somehow caused damage to our RKBA.

I would bet you a dollar for a doughnut that had the sale gone thru and been conducted illegally, it would pose a far greater potential risk to our RKBA than snitching the auction out to the dweebs at eBay.

I may not like the gun laws that govern the transfer of weapons between private citizens. I may think that they suck hind teat. It doesn't matter. As long as there are laws in place to govern the transfer of weapons, there will be those who watch for compliance and who jack folks up for stepping out of line. IMHO, it is the job of this community to help ensure that decent folks don't get jacked up out of ignorance of the law.

Had the seller simply acknowledged the issues and demonstrated a reasonable degree of concern for his fellow gunnie, this whole scenario would never have happened. But anyone who's demonstrated a willingness to potentially sell a fellow gunnie down the road - to roll the dice on another's RKBA for life - for a few bucks should be rightly shunned by our community. Did the seller fit this bill? Dunno, but they did precious little to demonstrate any desire to keep their fellow gunnie out of trouble.
 
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Well KFH, you've got the whole spectrum of replies. :D Good job! :p

Take what you want from them and stick to your morals. Your the only one who has to live with 'em in the end. ;)

Justin
(I still vote "neither" ;) )
 
What do you believe are some sensible gun laws?
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I don't believe any are sensible. Most are based on fear and ignorance or a blatant power grab. I thought about this for a while. The closest thing I can think of to a "sensible gun law" would be to regulate selling to a minor without parental consent. But I'd want to think that through longer than a day before I made up my mind.

I guess I'm a snitch:rolleyes:

Went to a gun show today. Didn't call the ATF once! Bought about 300 lbs. of surplus ammo. Bought some gun parts. Looked at some black powder revolvers and some mausers. Even tinkered with a demilled AK-47:D

I hope this means I'm on the road to recovery.:rolleyes:
 
From the photos I could tell it was not an antique. I really don't care if someone violates ebay's policys. But this guy was illegally selling a firearm. I sent him a PM advising him that it was illegal and against ebay policy.
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What the devil are you talking about?

Violating ebay's policies is not "illegal"

But this guy was trying to break federal law. I was hoping for stupidity to be his excuse, I contacted him and gave him about 36 hours to respond or cancel his auction.
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You need to bone up on federal law. There's nothing illegal about selling a receiver and shipping it to a non-ffl, so long as it is done intrastate. I've done it many times. Nor can you assume that because he didn't demand an FFL in the ad that he wouldn't secure one to ship interstate.

It could be that he was ignorant of the need for the deal to go through an FFL.
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NOT ALL TRANSFERS MUST GO THROUGH AN FFL! I can't believe you people don't know this.

But on the larger question, yes you were being a snitch for the Man. And you'll be the first against the wall when the Revolution comes and people are shouting "FREE COSMOLINE!" in the streets.
 
Even tinkered with a demilled AK-47
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When you buy it and investigate how to build one yourself, THEN you'll be on the road to recovery. Keep at it though, the road to recovery is within sight....... ;)
 
It's quite a dilemma. Ethical situations like this are not always easy to judge because everyone has their own individual interpretation of right and wrong. I tend to look at situations as being either "right" or "wrong" rather than "legal" or "illegal". (because "legal" does not necessarily mean "right" and "illegal" does not necessarily mean "wrong"). It's this individual interpretation that causes folks to act differently in any given situation. (personally I wouldn't have snitched...)
 
All quippy arguments aside, I'd would have bid if in the market for said part. It's Ebay's responsibility to filter that sh*t, not mine.

I would have instantly got rid of it to a private party and said, show me in the constitution and bill of rights where I've broken your laws.....from behind bars, but you get the point. Our rights are being trampled on and we simply whine about it. If Ebay wishes to uphold every single letter of the law, which they should, that is their responsibility, not mine. If they hold the seller culpible, that is still not my problem. Ebay has so much more money than us that it is simply ridiculous, let the lawyers fight it out, they always win anyway.

Who is our government going to go after. The bloke with the most most money, it always works that way, let's not kid ourselves into thinking these trumped up laws have anything to do with our well being, quit kidding yourselves and wise up folks. The government only wants money in cases like this, nothing more. For example, we're in Iraq for freedom.....tell that to the Rwandans buddy, yeah, keep deluding yourself if it makes you sleep better. Our government only justifies their actions that are in their best financial interest, nothing more, I'm ashamed of you hippie, I thought you believed in your core freedoms more than that. Our constitution and bill of rights were kept short and sweet for a reason. So blokes like you and I could realistically be expected to maybe remember them, not the umpteen thousand pages of law that we are now responsible for only so lawyers can get rich on our supposed negligence.

Hippy, I'm kind of ashamed of you right now for being some guardian type of fellow. Self policing is Ebay's responsibility, not yours. Most hippies I know (as one myself mind you, w/o the dreads) would have just kept my mouth shut. Live and let live is my motto. If I'm not involved, it's not my business, PERIOD. Life is simpler that way. I'm starting to understand why my grandpa and his offspring were such good people. It's not that they never had a conscientious (sp?) objection, it's just that it really wasn't really that big of a g****mn deal and it did not directly affect their life. Sure, someone could be shot with a gun based on this part. How is that your problem, please, tell me how YOU are responsible for everyone's safety? The government tries to take that on and it only helps the criminals, not the common folk who need guns to protect themselves from ciminals.

All this aside, I still wish to meet you someday and have to opportunity to disucss. Hippies who embrace the 2nd Amendment are few and far betweeen, we are a rare breed my friend, rare indeed. If you know what the Oregon Country Fair is, shoot me a PM and we'll discuss the details. If you've never been, don't argue, make plans. 2nd weekend in July is always the date. I've often wondered if the 2nd weekend in July doesn't have some cosmic Bill of Rights meaning after all.

jeepmor
 
snitching

i'm with the guy who wants to know if kfu reports all tag-light out violations he sees. after all, that would be a violation in progress and not just a matter of intent. can't see how one could find the time to donate as monitor for both the gov't. and ebay while maintaining a life-should certainly be getting a check from someone. jeepmor has some good thoughts which indicate that he is beginning to get it-i'm sure there is more to his philosophy and he is aware that it's not just desire for money, but yearning for power and validation(money often equates to these in our system, i know) that leads the susceptible to establish a legal structure irrelevant to the common welfare but uncommonly friendly to the sociopaths running things.
all that said, no big deal here; sounds more like kfu didn't want some guy getting away with something that he couldn't(or felt he couldn't) do himself. and no, i wouldn't stand by and allow disaster to occur on the basis of 'it's not my business'-i've taken keys from a drunk rather than risk the public safety, no law called and i don't care if he hates me or not(him and his family are silently down with it, so we're ok). we got some young chumps running around now stealing and tearing up and i hope they avoid me, but they're getting close to the line, so i'm certainly going to support those who have been harmed by them in bringing the little sob's to the altar. an interesting aside to this is that the law was called on them by a group of victims. the law came out and went back without the perp, but did pick up a guy for dui while they were in the neighborhood. i know i took the keys, but the driving/alcohol laws are out of hand-it's all getting to be a pain.
 
Right then.


Everybody take a deep breath.

Hold it.


Now exhale.

Repeat for a while, and listen up while yer doing that.


The inclination to Do Right is a laudable thing, and to act on that inclination is honorable.

However, Doing Right and Getting It Right aren't necessarilly the same thing, particularly when additional facts come to light afterwards which tend to turn the tables. There's a learning curve when it comes to moral/legal issues aren't cut and dried, and stuff can and will backfire on you.

The takeaway here is to tread carefully, and give people the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's not clear that anyone is being harmed.
 
kungfuhippie: The sad part is that this person should be able to sell guns on ebay. It is crazy to think that all of these laws, rules, and regulations even has us RKBA folk confused. You were faced with a difficult situation and made your decision. I wouldn't sweat it.
 
KFH, was that show in Ontario? We shoulda hooked up. :D I bought basically the same stuff as you.

When you put yourself out into public like you (and the ebay guy) did, you have to endure what others *think* is right. Should all the actions listed her been done in private or in front of a few others, neither of you wouldn't have caught so much grief. Try and use the internet what it is best for. Anonymity and great commerce.

May the force be with you. Always.

Justin
 
Let's everyone take a breather here, and consider that we are among friends.

Namecalling is not becoming, nor is foul language. Please remember the Forum Rules we all agreed to when we signed up here. There is a link in the upper right hand corner of each page for easy reference. Feel free to edit any posts you may have made that you feel might be frowned on.

This thread is still open, but it has about run it's course.
 
I call Godwin's Law!!!!

Derbyfals:

Let it fester to a boil, little brother. You don't want to be known as a closet gungrabber, do you?

Gun Control's Nazi Connection!!

Startling evidence suggests that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was lifted, almost in its entirety, from Nazi legislation.

by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
__________________
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Ignorance of the law is no excuse
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Heh. While this is a common (partial) quotation of Blackstone, it is not correct. :)

common law rule requiring mens rea as an element of a crime (from a famous gun case, Staples v. United States.)

Mens rea= criminal intent.

(And if anyone attempts to quote Wikipedia to me, be aware that Wiki is an open-source document and not definitive. Bring me a real source. :rolleyes: )

John
 
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