Republicans debate how tight border should be

[El Tejon]

Forgive my ignorance regarding the Libertarian Party but the stuff about "removing the Welfare State first" seems to be precatory thinking on behalf of those disenchanted with the current administration. It was my understanding of the LP platform that abolishing immigration controls would be done right out the gate. Anyone got any citation to the official LP line?

The notion of abolition of the Welfare State has been raised on THR before. Universally the response has been that immigration is about "protection of culture." I fail to see how the LP line addresses this concern of the very people supporting the LP???

Regarding Americans and their overwhelming desire for a life of ease, if I am incorrect in saying Americans, or a vast majority at least, no longer wish to work hard, then why are the illegal immigrants here to do their work?

 

[beerslurpy]

Honestly, El Tejon, there isnt much I can say to defend the Libertarian Party.

They often just spout out stuff without bothering to check that everyone else is on the same page as them. They also tend to be better at expunging non-purists than at building coalitions that include people who are only sort of on their side.

The Libertarian party needs to become a bit more mainstream (sort of like the NRA has become) but constantly keep pushing in the right direction.

They need to adopt a more strategic approach that sounds more pragmatic on the surface, but comes through as purist in its long term approach. This is why the republicans are doing better than the libertarians- they "play the game" but keep pushing their agendas forward on the side.

A great contrast is the US Dept of Education:
-the libertarians would quickly lop it off and get rid of it, creating a highly mobilized army of teachers and concerned parents
-the republicans gave us "no child left behind" which slowly boils the frog and accomplishes the same thing, only more slowly and without serious repercussions

Or govt spending:
-the libertarians would just say "govt spending is wrong" and chop chop- voters panic and mobilize, chaos ensues
-the republicans cut taxes a little, wage 30 wars at once, spend like drunken sailors and then everyone will say "oh no, we spent too much money, time to cut social spending"

Strategic thinking.

 

[El Tejon]

I thought the LP was founded and staffed by people who loathe the game playing in D.C.? Do they not still use Thoreau's quotation about being true to your goal?

I just find it ironic and downright odd that the LP is continually brought up on immigration threads as some sort of anti-immigrant alternative when their platform calls for the abolitition of immigration laws that people complain about not being enforced? It's as if people are lashing out of some alternative, any alternative, even if they do not understand what the party stands for.

 

[Firethorn]

I have to agree with beerslurpy.

That's why I call my self things like "strong defense" libertarion, moderate libertarian, small "L" libertarian.

Heck, some of my ideas are down right socialist in some ways.

For example, I'd replace minimum wage, welfare, etc with a federal jobs program. They'll hire anybody, and in exchange for 40 hours a week, provide, food, shelter, clothing, medical care, and training. Oh, and like 50 cents an hour worth of money. The food would be dining facility, the shelter barracks/dormatory, medical care would be the cheapest doctors I could find, and the training as practical towards getting to an employable state for the outside world.

Oh, and I'd let you work extra hours to earn credits to keep the bennies for a time once you do find outside employment.

 

[DRZinn]

That's why I'm a "closed-borders, pre-emptive force libertarian."

 

[longeyes]

Even if the welfare state were to be totally dismantled--dream on!--unlimited immigration would be a ludicrous notion. Nations are built on shared ideals and values--in other words, specific cultural predicates.

Where those of us who oppose unchecked illegal immigration are traveling is nationalism. Let's call it what it is. And not be ashamed of it.

 

[beerslurpy]

I agree with you guys that "the game" played in washington sucks and its dishonest, but its currently the best alternative we have to shooting people that disagree with us. And quite frankly, I would rather issues of governnance be settled on the basis of intelligence, strategic thought and subtlety than upon who can throw the most lead. It is rare that those most able to kick ass are also most blessed with the skills necessary to wisely rule.


The goals of the libertarians are worthy goals, but if we upset the whole country by accomplishing them too quickly and forcefully, it will be a pyrrhic and short-lived victory. Remember the backlash the left suffered from gun control? You have to boil the frog slowly. How slowly? As slowly as necessary to prevent the frog from jumping out the pot. How restless will the frog get if we flip a switch and turn off social security or free education tomorrow?

 

[RealGun]

Where those of us who oppose unchecked illegal immigration are traveling is nationalism. Let's call it what it is. And not be ashamed of it.

I don't care about that at all, welcoming diversity if there is some willingness to make an honest contribution and assimilate to some basic level, at least learn the language.

What I care about is a social services and infrastructure tax load that citizens never signed up for. It is very much like black immigration from the South to northern cities before during and after the civil war. Come on DOWN!!