resist arrest

[scottfrmga]

we have a little bit of a mess here in north ga, a local pastor was shot by police tuesday afternoon (drug task force) it was a bad shoot and its under investigation so I don't want to get in to what went wrong just yet. lets just say he was a good guy who was in the wrong place. now to my question, a lawyer commented on the video and said that you have the right to resist arrest with comparable force, as in you can use what ever force is necessary to resist unlawful arrest. I could not find the link to the lawyer statement in was late last night but here is part of the clip
http://www.wnegtv.com/index.php?opt...ak-out-on-ayers&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=18
http://www.wnegtv.com/index.php?opt...before-shooting&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=18

 

[Kindrox]

A practical question to ask, though, is do you normally survive to tell your side of the story. Or have any witnesses? A local story in Fort Worth was the recent trial of a man for resisting arrest. The man's attorney waited 15 months, while presenting his defense, to show the video of the arrest (shot by a bystander). The guy was plain and simple getting his ass beat by the cops.

Without the video I assume he would be convicted. But he walked and the cops are going to get hung out to dry. Why? The man sat on the video so that his lawyer would have them under oath answering questions BEFORE they showed the video. I bet there was some serious pucker on home movies day!

 

[Old Fuff]

This is a particularly sad case, as the news reports the pastor was 28 years-old, and the family was expecting the birth of a child - who will now never know his or her father.

To answer the question: Regardless of what the statutes may say, it is far better to submit to arrest, legal or illegal, and them make your case in court. If the evidence proves the arrest was illegal, then sue the responsible individuals into the ground.

 

[Husker_Fan]

Provided the officer has a good faith basis for the arrest, you can be carged and convicted of resisting even if the underlying arrest was a mistake. At least in some jurisdictions. The most common scenario is one of mistaken identity where the officer misidentifies a suspect, tries to arrest the person, and the person resists.

 

[bensdad]

I'm not going to advocate one response over the other. Just going to throw a question out there. Does there come a time when what's best for me, and what's best for my country, are not the same thing? Are the courts capable of teaching LE that we (the people) are losing faith in their collective ability to protect and serve?

 

[Z-Michigan]

Whether you can resist unlawful arrest depends on state law, so what's true in one state may be irrelevant for another state. In general you're going to lose in all cases. Better to submit and deal with it later through the legal system (be a good sheeple).

Does there come a time when what's best for me, and what's best for my country, are not the same thing? Are the courts capable of teaching LE that we (the people) are losing faith in their collective ability to protect and serve?

I get the general gist. I think a lot of us are questioning the benefits and morality of our current government.

 

[Deanimator]

Unless they're actually trying to kill you, take the false arrest. A false arrest is like that dog food they used to advertise when I was a kid. It "makes its own gravy". If you're falsely arrested, there's no "he said - he said". There's either DOCUMENTARY PROOF that you were falsely arrested or evidence of EVIDENCE TAMPERING. If you live in a state that permits it (Ohio does), audio recording of police encounters is the cherry on top. Here in Ohio, it's been a source of considerable humiliation to bad cops.

Satisfaction comes later with ruined careers, wrecked finances and broken families.

 

[General Geoff]

In PA at least, it is unlawful to resist even a wrongful arrest, if it is being made by a uniformed law enforcement officer. Basically, you MUST let them cuff you and do what they want with you, if they're in uniform.

 

[Deanimator]

In general you're going to lose in all cases. Better to submit and deal with it later through the legal system (be a good sheeple).

If I submit to your false arrest, then hound you to the grave administratively, in criminal court, in civil court and in the court of public opinion, that hardly qualifies as being a "sheeple". Sheep don't have fangs, much less sink them into an attacker's behind, even if it is after the fact.

I don't advocate fighting with the police on the side of the road. Revenge is a dish best served cold... and in as many courses as possible.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Deanimator, you have much more faith in your ability to use the legal system than I do.

However, I do agree with your second paragraph - I'm not advocating fighting either. I'm just saying that, IMHO, you're likely to lose either way. If you happen to have videotape of the entire encounter from start to finish that may be very helpful, or not. A court could find excuses to rule it inadmissible, or the arresting officer could be really good at planting/fabricating evidence.

 

[ilbob]

as a practical matter, you have little choice. it does not matter whether the arrest is completely legit, or completely bogus. the full weight of the state is on the side of the guy making the arrest, and the authorities (including the courts) really do not care if the arrest was legit or not.

for those of you advocating suing afterward, forget it. your chances of getting any satisfaction out of the courts are close to nil in most cases, no matter how egregious the situation.

it is a classic no-win situation for you. the best you can realistically hope for is to limit the extent of your loss.

 

[Sav .250]

I have this picture of the guy in LA in my head, where the cops are beating him stupid and he`s saying," can`t we all just get along."
Who, in their RIGHT mind, would choose to resist??

 

[bababooey32]

True false arrests are few and far between. As stated earlier, in most instances the cops have a good faith basis for the arrest, even if it proves incorrect later...That is not a "false arrest".

BTW - In this case the video shows the "pastor" attempting to run over an agent and then the other while driving a littel crazy in a gas station parking lot. He was using a deadly weapon against these LEOs who had never tried to arrest anyone. The LEO's appear to be completely justified in shooting to defend themselves.

 

[Deanimator]

Deanimator, you have much more faith in your ability to use the legal system than I do.

However, I do agree with your second paragraph - I'm not advocating fighting either. I'm just saying that, IMHO, you're likely to lose either way. If you happen to have videotape of the entire encounter from start to finish that may be very helpful, or not. A court could find excuses to rule it inadmissible, or the arresting officer could be really good at planting/fabricating evidence.

To you and ilbob: I'm going to go with the "Samson option". Yeah, they might win in the end, but they're not going to trumpet it as a grand victory. I'll do whatever humanly possible to spoil their fun and to leave a bad taste in their mouths. If I can't ruin their finances, I'll ruin their reputations.

Falsely arrest me and it's scorched earth time. I don't care what it takes or what it costs. If you just roll over, that's called positive reinforcement. You're teaching the bad cops that it pays to BE bad. You really CAN hound somebody to their grave. Literally ANYTHING within the law is fair game. I don't care about your family, don't even waste time mentioning them. Falsely arrest me and find out. Don't appologize to me. Appologize to your family because there's no house, no food and nobody's going to college without an ROTC scholarship (and maybe not then, if I can attach it).

If enough people took that approach, there'd be real deterrence.

 

[Deanimator]

True false arrests are few and far between.

And when they do happen, they're horrendously egregious, like the one that happened to a North Carolina man in Fairfax County, Virginia. If you arrest me for a variety of things, NONE of which is a crime, there's no "good faith". You've pierced your own qualified immunity. I'll do my level best to destroy your life as you know it. If it's within the law, no card's off the table.

 

[rbohm]

i am with deanimator, to a point. falsely arrest me, and you get one chance at a proper public apology, and proper compensation. after that it is a scorched earth policy, and heads will roll at all levels of local, county, and state government. file as many civil and criminal charges against all involved in both state and federal courts. and when the inevitable settlement talks come along, you set the terms not the lawyers.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. Even if they do arrest you falsely, they have to prove you are guilty of a crime. If you're innocent, you have nothing to worry about. I feel for the pastor's family, but sorry, I don't have any sympathy for people who run from police or resist arrest. If they were trying to arrest me without cause I would go without resisting. They have the burden of proof. I'm not saying I would like it or that I wouldn't let them know about it, but I would not resort to any kind of force.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Sorry, but I have to post again. I just read the newspaper story in another thread here and something jumped out at me. Before the officers fired, the pastor put his vehicle in reverse and struck one of the officers. Whether or not this was intentional, we'll never know, but it does shed a new light on the subject. He struck an officer with his car while trying to avoid questioning about a passenger. Let's stop calling him a pastor, that is now irrelevant. Whether on purpose or not, he struck a police officer with a car, and he got shot for it. Any officer in America would have done the same thing, and justifiably so.

 

[rbohm]

Let's stop calling him a pastor, that is now irrelevant.

until the church strips him of his credentials, he is still rightly called pastor.

 

[DHJenkins]

Falsely arrest me and it's scorched earth time. I don't care what it takes or what it costs. If you just roll over, that's called positive reinforcement. You're teaching the bad cops that it pays to BE bad. You really CAN hound somebody to their grave. Literally ANYTHING within the law is fair game. I don't care about your family, don't even waste time mentioning them. Falsely arrest me and find out. Don't appologize to me. Appologize to your family because there's no house, no food and nobody's going to college without an ROTC scholarship (and maybe not then, if I can attach it).

This.

Personally, I look at a false arrest as an opportunity for a payday. The best thing you can do is to calmly vocalize your innocence (enough for the microphones to pick it up), then comply with the officer's demands. Jail may be unpleasant, but it's just a building with very few windows, and you can spend your time thinking about all the stuff you're going to buy with your settlement money. Depending on the charge, you can bond out in as little as 12 hours.

We had a case here in SA a while back where a man was arrested with a large bag of what was supposedly marijuana. In reality, it was his grandmother's ashes. He spent a few months in jail because he couldn't afford the bond due to the size of the 'bust'. I believe the settlement was a solid 7 figures.

 

[w_houle]

I guess as a society of equals: The idea of being a subject is absurd, but this is the non sequitor we allow to exist. LE power is increasing and rights are turning to arbitrary privileges. I know that doesn't square with that utopian society of which we seek, but we lament when something we took for granted is gone. I guess that's what happens when to legislate common sense and morality.
There is never going to be a right time for the people to tell the government that we don't want further regulation. Yes, we wear our chains lightly. They're so light that we don't even notice them until it's time to be loaded up into the squad car. We have the highest percentage of people in prison than any other nation.
I don't let it bother me though: It's not like there's anything to do about it, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's champagne.

 

[Mags]

This reminds of a thread in here about "no knock warrants" and how some of these warrants were served at the wrong address. These " no knock warrants" are extremely swift and violent, I would definetly feel like my life was threatened if one was to accidentally occur at my home. However as it may be my basic instict to defend myself when someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night which is how these warrants are served I know it would be in my best interest to comply with the arresting officers. You gotta think about this you resist a cop and God help you you shoot him thinking he is an intruder you have just commited suicide by cop. Put yourself in their shoes they think you are someone else a no good criminal and you have just harmed one of their close friends and coworkers you know what will happen next. So in my opinion given a scenarion where you fear for your life it is still no good to resist the officers unless you want the SWAT team to come and get you.

 

[bambam1723]

I know I'm new here and I don't wanna "ruffle any feathers" on this topic, but I do have a few things I would like to add. I am not going to attack individuals in here as I feel that is bad form and not the way to handle conversations like these. I am simply going to point out some things I have disagreed with.

I just read the story and watched the surveillance video from the first post. If you haven't then I suggest you go to the links before posting anything and not just go off on a rant about how bad the police are and how they are corrupt. If you watch the surveillance video you see the car actually backs into one of the Officer's. The Officer has to scramble to avoid being run over by the car. At that point in time, the driver has attempted to use deadly force with a deadly weapon. The Officer's are justified to use deadly force to protect their own lives.

If the driver had simply complied and was found to be guilty of no crime then he would still be alive. False arrests happen...it's a sad fact of law enforcement. They are terrible and should be avoided at all costs. But with millions upon millions of Officer's making millions upon millions of arrests a year, it is bound to happen. We have a plit second to make a decision that may mean life or death for one or several people...we do the best we can. When the mistakes are caught, the necessary steps should be taken to apease the innocent party and to give training to the Officer so the same mistake won't happen again.

Plain and simple, if an Officer tells you to do something, agree or not, just do it. You will have your time later to get your points across. Remember our first and foremost concern upon making an arrest is safety. We will not be down for a debate when I am trying to keep a volatile situation under control. I will ask you once, advise you once, order you once, and then I will use whatever force necessary to make the arrest. We will sort everything out after the scene is controlled. My main objective everyday is to go home to see my beautiful Wife and Children. If I make a mistake but still make it home, it was a good day.

Didn't mean to get preachy there, just a topic I feel strongly about. I heard from Paul Harvey that one half of 1 percent of Police Officer's misfit there uniform, and that is a better average that you'd find among clerymen. Just my views guys, not all will agree, some will.

Paul Harvey - "policemen"

Have a good day gents

 

[scottfrmga]

watch the video carefully and you will see two large men who look like gang bangers getting out of a pimped up ride. and running at you with guns out in about 15 seconds. what would you do? will you ask them really nice what can I do for you? or will you try to get away as best you can. Ayers did not try to attack them. he was trying to escape

 

[Jim K]

You cannot legally resist arrest even if it is due to a mistake or you are innocent of any wrongdoing. Otherwise every thug would kill a cop, then claim he was resisting an unlawful arrest. And just because the person being arrested is innocent does not mean the arrest is unlawful or that he can sue for big bucks. If the officer acted in good faith, a mistake does not make an arrest unlawful or allow the plaintiff to win a false arrest law suit.

IMHO, that lawyer is giving very bad advice and should be disbarred.

Barring an actual "death squad" situation, it is far better to allow the police to make the arrest and hash things out in court than to resist and take a chance of being injured or killed. Sure, your family might sue and get big bucks and an apology from the police chief, but exactly how does that help you if you are dead?

Jim