review of new ar....

[yesterdaysyouth]

well i got tired of playing with old sks's and stinky wolf ammo so i decided to but myself an ar-15....

i have a RRA standard a2 lower, no big deal there, nice heavy trigger but i can fix that easy enough... the upper is the national match 20" wilson 1/8 twist barrel... with EOP, im taking the front site off asap...

when i got the thing i didn't like the balance at all for a target rifle.. so i jammed the buttstock full of 7 1/2 size lead shot.... now it's nice and heavy almost like it sits on you shoulder...

so i called up the good ole' sportsman guide and ordered up some mags and a simmons 6-24x50 with AO and target turrets, for 80 bux i don't think you can beat this scope....i had some cheap aluminum rings laying here and used those, just mounted the bases and slapped on the rings, no lapping or aligning... i ain't got that kinda time

here's the setup, i was shooting black hills matchking 77gr. moly coated loads... shooting prone off a sandbag @ 105yds... it took about 8 shots to zero the scope, which would have been a total of 22rnds through it at the time..... oh and winds were actually calm, and it was friggin hot!!!

i was shooting at those 1 1/2" orange dots from birchwood casey, first 5 shots were rapid fire, rapid meaning... shoot and obtain sight picture and shoot again.... probally a shot a second.... all five shots were in the dot....

i was suprised to say the least

so im thinking what can this thing do slow fire??? heh heh heh... i put out a new dot and started firing... i ended up with 12 rnds within the size of a dime!!! if anyone close wants to come take a pic i still have the targets.... im gonna cut em out and stick em on the fridge

needless to say the sks is long gone and i'll never look back....

i need to go pick up some cheaper rnds and try this again, im almost positive i won't shoot such tight groups, but that black hills is a WEE bit high for plinking...

for an out of the box rifle i don't think you could do much better than RRA, my uncle brought his new browning a-bolt out and the best we could do with it was a 2 1/2" 3 shot group with handloads... it would be a great rifle for hunting, but then so would an ar..... look im still amazed...

 

[Engineer]

Nice review. I just picked up a Varmint 20" with the EOP upper last weekend. Haven't gotten as far as you have yet, but I've managed to run a few shots through to test the function. The two-stage trigger feels great - much better than all the stock AR trigger's that I've had. After reading your review, I definitely have to get some glass on her soon and try her out!

 

[Redlg155]

Congrats!

Sounds like you have a good shooting setup there. I haven't tried the 77gr offering, but the 68grain gives me an honest 3/4" at 100 yards on my Armalite/Bushy/RR hybrid.

One thing you definitely need to consider is the two stage trigger. The difference to me is night and day on a target rifle. Mine was sweet straight from Rock River and ,much better than the stock Bushy trigger. I'd say it almost cut my groups in half.


Good Shooting
Red

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

well the 2 stage trigger is what i wanted, but it probally would have been at least 2 months before my dealer could get it...

im sure as time goes on, i'll buy the match lower, and probally an a2 upper then i'll just swap em out...

ooohhhh that would be 2 evil black rifles......

 

[Jack19]

Congrats on the RRA. I love mine. Ultra reliable. Accurate. Can't do much better really.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

well i got some new ammo so i'll update after this weekend probally....

but what i wanna know now is did i get screwed??? i went to the local shop, ( i know, i know, i just answered my own question) and picked up some 223...

all they had was federal xm193, it's 55gr. btfmj, the price was 4.50/box...

i didn't think much of it until i get home and crack a box open, looks like i just paid new ammo price for reloads!!! yaayyyyy!!!!

OAL varries +/- .007... not that bad, but not even comparable to the black hills, but it only cost 1/3 as much.... i am upset that the salesperson didn't have anything to say about them not being new... back to wal-mart for me....

 

[444]

You would have to give us some reason why you think these are reloads before we have anything to say about it either. I don't really see how you could tell a round was reloaded assuming it is using the same bullet as the factory load. I have a case of the ammo you mention: Federal XM193. The individual 20 round boxes are white and are sealed from the factory. The cases arn't real shiny, but that shouldn't hurt the way they shoot.

 

[Engineer]

Like 444 said, XM193 ain't pretty stuff. You might want to check out the ammo oracle as they have some pictures of XM193. Mine came in a brown cardboard box, but it was sealed and should have the lot number stamped on it.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

christ this stuff is rough for new production.... but if it works i can live with it... anyone know why all the dents in the brass??? and knicks around the rim??? must have some mad monkeys in there running the machinery....

 

[444]

I don't know. I never really looked closely at this stuff before you mentioned it, but this stuff is rough looking. My cases are tarnished, they have a few dings in them, and they have that blue color that I assume is from annealing the neck.
My handloads look a lot better than this.
But, it runs good out of my ARs and seems to be fairly accurate. I have never shot it from a bench, but I have shot some decent groups at 200 from prone using it.
When I bought this ammo, I wanted brass cased ammo. I normally shoot Wolf, but like to keep both kinds on hand. The wholesaler was out of PMC and this was the next cheapest stuff available.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

do you ever have any problems with the wolf sticking in the chamber?? can you notice any wear on the extractor??

and how do the wolf and pmc group compared with the federal?
any other brands you'd recommend ??? i've found a pretty good deal on some S&B and winchester....

 

[444]

This is going to cause a stir, but I have fired well over 5000 rounds of Wolf out of my AR15s. I have NEVER had a problem of any kind. It is very cheap and that is why I shoot it. It is about half the money of anything else out there. And, since I don't have problems with it, I shoot it. As for accuracy, I have never shot any of my AR15s on paper, from a bench, for accuracy. The best I can do is this: I fired at a Shoot-n-See sticker pasted on a silhouette target from the prone position at 200 yards using a 16" AR and an Aimpoint red dot sight without magnification. I put six out of six rounds on the sticker. I took a four day carbine class and used Wolf ammo throughout. I shot the high score on the end of course shoot off. The closest anyone came to me was half my score. Now I am not telling you this to inflate my ego, I am telling you this because I have had good luck with Wolf ammo. This luck came with extensive, testing, not speculation or repeating what I read on the internet. I don't for a moment believe that Wolf ammo is the best stuff out there. Far from it. But if you shoot a lot, buying ammo at half the price only makes sense; and when it runs good and produces adequate accuracy, there is no reason not to buy it.
The only problem I ever had with an AR15 occured as a result of using PMC ammo. During a different carbine class I had a type 1 malfunction (failure to fire). I did an immediate action drill and found that the bullet came out of the case and filled the action with powder. My weapon was totally unreliable after that until I cleaned it again at noon. I can also tell you that as a reloader, I find PMC quality to be poor. Their brass often has primer flash holes that are off center. That being said, I normally use PMC ammo for these classes. Why ? Because it is the next cheapest ammo to Wolf. I don't use Wolf for one simple reason. Many people are conviced that Wolf ammo is bad and won't allow reality or careful testing to change their mind. If I have a problem with my carbine, I don't want to hear everyone immediately say that it is the result of using Wolf ammo; this will be an automatic, knee jerk response. I would just rather avoid the situation and shoot PMC even though I don't believe in my own mind that it is better ammo. Besides, at these classes you don't pick up your brass, so reloading the brass isn't an issue.
I have noticed no extractor problems. Everytime I clean my AR, I disassemble the bolt including the extractor. I examine the extractor on a regular basis (every time I clean the weapon). There is no undue wear. This was never a concern for me, but is even less a concern now. Being the gear junkie that I am, several months ago I purchased hard chromed extractors for all 12 of my AR rifles and carbines from Les Bear along with extra power extractor springs from Wolf and "black" extractor spring inserts from S.A.W. I anticiapate no extractor problems.

I personally like the Federal and Winchester ammo. If you want to buy good, brass cased ammo and don't want to buy the Black Hills stuff (very good stuff), then that is what I would go with.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

im glad to see what looks to be an honest response about wolf ammo....
im sure it's a matter of time before i shoot some myself, but right now i need the brass to load some match rounds.....

anyone ever shoot the S&B??? i need some input, cause this looks like the next im gonna try.....

 

[Engineer]

My .223 shooting is done with about 90% Wolf or Barnaul ammo. In the many thousands of rounds I have used, I have never had any problems with the steel cased ammo.

If you're looking for brass, it might be worth it just to order some processed, ready to load brass from River Valley Ordnance Works.

 

[Logistar]

I don't use Wolf in an AR but it seems fine in my AK. Only problem I have had was 1 FTF. -Nice dent in primer but no ignition. -I have had 2 FTFs using Winchester ammo in 2 different handguns.

When I cleaned the AK for the first time (after shooting it) I was expecting a MESS but it didn't seem bad at all to me.

My opinion on Wolff... "Russian ammo for Russian guns" (as many have said), -No, I have never used it in my Beretta 92 or my Taurus.

FWIW - Logistar

 

[4v50 Gary]

You just slapped the scope on with Aluminum rings and within 8 shots, got it sighted. Then you go out and pop five rounds into a target dot at 105 yards. You're a modest dude.

Thanks for the review of the Rock River Arms AR. Never heard anything (good or bad) about them until now.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

You just slapped the scope on with Aluminum rings and within 8 shots, got it sighted. Then you go out and pop five rounds into a target dot at 105 yards. You're a modest dude.

well there might have been some luck involved....

im gonna do some longer range stuff tomorow, might as well go set up some targets now....

 

[BDM]

To 444,I too went to the same chromed extractor and xpower spring and they work great,what do you think about the chromed ejectors,les said he will sell those assemblies seperate as well?with these chromed parts I started my own carbine improvement program,they also do chromed campins,gas key and bolts.I figured if it gets real dirty these vital parts chromed would work longer smoother.

 

[444]

I don't know, never really gave it any thought. I have had mine real dirty and never experienced any problems. I suppose a case could be made for hard chromed stuff being smoother, certainly tougher. I doubt I will do anything other than the extractors, but if you do it, let us know how it works out for you.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

i got out to the farm last night and setup some targets at 100 200 300 450 and 600yards....

i was shooting the federal xm193 that i picked up.... same rifle, nothing changed there

for 1,2 and 300 yards i was prone on the sandbag again, couldn't get out any farther than that on the ground.... and since the cold front is heading in i had a cross/tail wind of about 10mph for these shots, it didn't make a lot of difference in bullet path but it was blowing me around a bit, and the paper i was shooting at....


at each distance i shot a full mag of 20rnds at the target, the target itself was about 6 ft. wide each time and 51 inches tall, with one of those taget spots being my point of aim.... all shots were slow aimed fire...

at 100yards, i landed 14rnds in a 1.5" group and had several flyers, mainly because the paper was flapping around.....

at 200yards, i had 16rnds in a 3" group, the wind didn't blow around quite so hard this time, average bullet drop was about 2.5" from poa....

at 300yards, 13 shots im a 4.5" group, eyes were getting real tired at this point, and the wind was getting stronger... bullet drop was around 8" from poa...

so i picked up camp and moved to the longer ridge, where i set up the 450 and 600 yard shots.... i couldn't shoot prone, couldn't get high enough to see the targets, so i setup the sandbags on top of the car and shot standing.... wind was getting worse now easily 15mph... but i managed to keep the targets from moving with some hay bales....

so at 450yards i shot 15rnds into 2 seperate 8" groups, don't know how this happened but the wind was constantly changing and i probally took 5 mins to make the 20 shots....bullet drop was about 2 ft.

at 600yards, i had to bring the elevation up on the scope to keep em out of the dirt, i went up 15 clicks.... i think i hit the paper 10x's all of which were about 1ft. low and 3 ft. to the left thanks to the wind... the other 10 would have been even further to the left...

i had a great time although it took me 5 hours to go through 100rounds.... if i would have walked to the targets i would have been 5 days.... but that's why subaru makes all their cars all wheel drive..... looks kinda funny seeing a green station wagon cruising up and down the hills through the hay fields....

so i highly recommend doing some long range shooting if you have somewhere to do it... just bring plenty of water....

 

[MiniZ]

Congrats!! sounds like you have a fine rifle.

YMMV with Wolf. Some have had great luck with it in ARs, and others have not. I'm one of those that did not.

I love it in my Soviet Bloc style weapons, and gave it a try in the AR. I had a lot of fired cases that stuck in the chamber. luckily I had a cleaning rod to push them out with.

It won't hurt to give Wolf a try if you are looking for some cheap plinking ammo. I suggest buying a few boxes and trying it in your rifle before plunking down for a case though.

 

[BDM]

what type of ar do you have?is the chamber 5.56 and chromed or you could have a worn extractor or spring,a good field AR rifle should eat anything you feed it,wolf is all I used at black water and it ran fine and I only cleaned and lubed it after the 600 rounds a day I put through it.At my local range my bushmaster has gone 1500 rounds no problems,it probably would have gone more but all I brought was 1500 of wolf.I know on wolf ammo now they dont laquer the bullet at the case neck anymore just at the primer but pmc ammo and others do that also.

 

[MiniZ]

The upper I was having the issue with was an OLY 5.56 chambered, chrome lined. I was thinking extractor as well, but the extractor had enough force to rip a chunk out of the case rim. The case was in there pretty darn tight!

 

[BDM]

Could be the chamber was not reamed good enough before chroming or it might be a match chamber marked 5.56,when at the range try chambering a 5.56 round and if its hard to extract in a clean chamber then the chamber could just be too tight.But even if it extracts fine it could still be a little tighter than 5.56