Revised conditions of readiness

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Cooper was trying to reflect that it is harder to shoot a DA than a SA, which is why he made DA a higher number.

Did he? I am far from an expert on Cooper but im pretty sure his conditions were for a 1911, which doesn't have DA. When he was talking about "round chambered, hammer down" he meant a condition that required manually cocking the hammer. He enumerated it because some people feel it is safer but it is actually less safe than condition 1.
 
Me, too.
Cooper's conditions of readiness really apply only to the 1911 and other "single action" automatics.
Making up or force fitting conditions to other weapons is probably a harmless mental exercise if you can't get to the range.

Jan Stevenson did it years ago in his column in Guns Magazine.
He kept adding stuff until he arrived at:
Magazine loaded
Chamber empty
Hammer down
Safety engaged (gun design allowed this)
In flap holster
Flap strap buckled

Condition 13

Naturally the numbers were fudged to come out that way but it was the actual carry mode for German police Walther PP .32s at the time.
 
Me, too.
Cooper's conditions of readiness really apply only to the 1911 and other "single action" automatics.
Making up or force fitting conditions to other weapons is probably a harmless mental exercise if you can't get to the range.
I agree.
 
Nice idea...but too many "conditions" for me. And likely too many conditions for most people. If it's not short and sweet, such things tend to cause a loss of interest rather than back up good safety practices.
 
that is why the conditions are there. there is no .5 there is no halfway between cocked and uncocked, half cocked on any gun that has a half cock position operates the same as hammer down and locked. a DAO gun still requires no action on your part to engage the target other than squeezing the trigger, same with DAO, they don't need their own .5 condition. now I'm sure that there are people that have studied cooper in detail and will tell me that I am completely wrong, but that is just the way that my brain works, it's how I've made sense of it, and how I've remembered and taught it to students so that they can also make sense of it and remember it in turn.

Have you ever pulled the light, half cocked trigger of a Kahr, HK LEM or Glock? Did they seem the same as a DA trigger?


If there is no difference between one unblocked trigger and another, than a .5 pound Pardini target pistol is the "the same as" 12 pound PPK DA trigger.
 
As others have said, you're over-complicating an issue that is rather simple. And there is no benefit.

If a D.A. auto has a decocker (like most modern ones do), it is as safe as a D.A. revolver with the hammer down, so there is no need to add "numbers."
 
No thanks, just making things complicated isn't much fun for me.

If its got a safety I carry cocked and locked, if it's a striker fired or double action gun I carry it chambered.
Ditto. I'm exclusively an SAO guy – makes for simplicity in all aspects.
 
Have you ever pulled the light, half cocked trigger of a Kahr, HK LEM or Glock? Did they seem the same as a DA trigger?
oh boy. you're arguing semantics. it doesn't matter if it's double or single. if the only action that must be taken is to squeeze the trigger then it's condition zero. in a DA/SA gun, hammer down but round in chamber and safety off still equates to condition zero just as much as hammer back, and on that same note, round in chamber on a glock. you're arguing that different weight of pulls should constitute additional conditions that must be met to engage the target?
 
No, I'm saying that your likelihood of hitting the target and your likelihood of having an ND are inversely related when it comes to trigger pulls.

All a trigger does is make it possible to fire when you want and make it unlikely when you don't. For some guns that means never carrying it loaded (target pistol), and for others it means that the trigger is such an effective safety that it barely matters how the gun is carried. Like when cops had exposed trigger holsters.
 
and this has nothing to do with readiness conditions... it has to do with safety, which is a completely different subject from the topic of this thread.
 
and this has nothing to do with readiness conditions... it has to do with safety, which is a completely different subject from the topic of this thread.

Yea.
Those need to be updated too. ;)
Pink: Oblivious to surroundings, looking at phone, expect nothing bad will happen, not armed.
White: Oblivious to surroundings, looking at phone, distracted, may or may not be armed.
Yellow: Aware of surroundings, not looking at phone, armed.
Green: Aware of surroundings, not looking at phone, armed with more than a pocket pistol. :D
 
Good Ol' Boy said:
I'm not claiming to be a know-it-all by any means, actually just the opposite. I'm pleading ignorance here.

Please list a pistol and explain how/why it does not fall under one of the 4 conditions I mentioned. I would suggest maybe reading my above post again.

I haven't shot everything under the sun so I'm anxious to get schooled here, if there is anything to be learned.

I read your comments as trying to do the same thing RX-79 was trying to do: combine safety/readiness conditions and action types into a single list. If I misinterpreted, my apologies. If you were just addressing safety/readiness conditions your list is correct as far as it goes -- but maybe you didn't go far enough. (That said, Col. Cooper's list, shown below, doesn't go far enough, either. But it's an old list and really seemsfocused around the military use of the 1911 platform.) Here's your list again:

Good Ol' Boy said:
My conditions are-
1. Cocked and unlocked w/ round in chamber (fits most pistols)
2. Cocked and locked w/ round in chamber (only pistols with a safety)
3. De-cocked and unlocked w/ round in chamber (certain pistols)
4. De-cocked and unlocked w/ NO round in chamber (fits most pistols)

Here's Cooper's "readiness conditions." You'll note that he spoke of full magazines. While the magazine clearly doesn't have to be FULL for the gun to be ready to fire, it does have to be full if you are going to be READY for a combat or self-defense situation.


Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.​

A lot of guns, nowadays, start from a semi-cocked state and don't have safeties. That semi-cocked state affects what happens next when things don't work as they should -- as is noted below.

Most decocker-equipped guns don't have safeties. A few that do (like 3rd Gen S&W semi-autos and the Beretta 92/M9) might perform both functions using a single control, and you might have to decock before you can engage the safety. These guns act like Condition 3 guns only for the first round fired.

While most DA, SA, or DA/SA guns can be function from condition 1, and several can do so starting from condition 3, too, DAO guns are typically found only in condition 3 -- never condition 1. DAO guns are only cocked at the end of the trigger stroke -- they have no real need for safeties! Any DA/SA gun that can start from fully-hammer down, can fall into condition 3, too -- for the first shot.

Glocks and similar pre-tensioned striker-fired guns (and a few pre-tensioned hammer-fired) guns don't really fit any of your conditions (or Cooper's) -- as these guns are almost -- but not quite -- DAO guns: if the round doesn't ignite, a gun that started from condition 1 suddenly changes to condition 3 -- you must rack the slide and load a fresh round before you can fire again. (As noted in earlier responses, a few of the "pre-tensioned" guns do have a true DA function -- pulling the trigger will cock the hammer or striker AND release it too.)

While SAO guns fall into condition 2, so do some DA/SA guns. Some DA/SA guns can start that way (in DA mode) and function in SA mode with subsequent shots. (Are we talking Action Type mixed with Readiness Conditions, again?) I'd argue that "Readiness Conditions: shouldn't be limited to just the first shot -- which is why, I think Cooper mentions a full magazine in his list (shown below).

Cooper's readiness conditions don't fully address modern striker-fired guns, -- but some partially cocked striker guns are only little different than a DAO gun -- and in some, little different from a SA gun -- even if the gun is equipped with a safety lever. Some are.

Some partially-tensioned striker-fired guns DO have safeties, and Cooper's scheme sort of works with them. Some partially-tensioned striker-fired guns can be fully decocked. Cooper's scheme works with them, too.
 
I read your comments as trying to do the same thing RX-79 was trying to do: combine safety/readiness conditions and action types into a single list. If I misinterpreted, my apologies. If you were just addressing safety/readiness conditions your list is correct as far as it goes -- but maybe you didn't go far enough. (That said, Col. Cooper's list, shown below, doesn't go far enough, either. But it's an old list and really seemsfocused around the military use of the 1911 platform.) Here's your list again:



Here's Cooper's "readiness conditions." You'll note that he spoke of full magazines. While the magazine clearly doesn't have to be FULL for the gun to be ready to fire, it does have to be full if you are going to be READY for a combat or self-defense situation.


Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down.
Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.​

A lot of guns, nowadays, start from a semi-cocked state and don't have safeties. That semi-cocked state affects what happens next when things don't work as they should -- as is noted below.

Most decocker-equipped guns don't have safeties. A few that do (like 3rd Gen S&W semi-autos and the Beretta 92/M9) might perform both functions using a single control, and you might have to decock before you can engage the safety. These guns act like Condition 3 guns only for the first round fired.

While most DA, SA, or DA/SA guns can be function from condition 1, and several can do so starting from condition 3, too, DAO guns are typically found only in condition 3 -- never condition 1. DAO guns are only cocked at the end of the trigger stroke -- they have no real need for safeties! Any DA/SA gun that can start from fully-hammer down, can fall into condition 3, too -- for the first shot.

Glocks and similar pre-tensioned striker-fired guns (and a few pre-tensioned hammer-fired) guns don't really fit any of your conditions (or Cooper's) -- as these guns are almost -- but not quite -- DAO guns: if the round doesn't ignite, a gun that started from condition 1 suddenly changes to condition 3 -- you must rack the slide and load a fresh round before you can fire again. (As noted in earlier responses, a few of the "pre-tensioned" guns do have a true DA function -- pulling the trigger will cock the hammer or striker AND release it too.)

While SAO guns fall into condition 2, so do some DA/SA guns. Some DA/SA guns can start that way (in DA mode) and function in SA mode with subsequent shots. (Are we talking Action Type mixed with Readiness Conditions, again?) I'd argue that "Readiness Conditions: shouldn't be limited to just the first shot -- which is why, I think Cooper mentions a full magazine in his list (shown below).

Cooper's readiness conditions don't fully address modern striker-fired guns, -- but some partially cocked striker guns are only little different than a DAO gun -- and in some, little different from a SA gun -- even if the gun is equipped with a safety lever. Some are.

Some partially-tensioned striker-fired guns DO have safeties, and Cooper's scheme sort of works with them. Some partially-tensioned striker-fired guns can be fully decocked. Cooper's scheme works with them, too.
Point taken.

However, all guns fit SOME conditions of the four I listed. Some don't fit all, but that's ok as that's the way they were designed.

I too believe Coopers original conditions were based around the 1911 platform but all guns fit at least a couple of the conditions.

Based on those 4 conditions, regardless of what type of pistol one owns, it's important to understand which ones yours fits and why. Also understand why other guns fit different conditions that yours doesn't.

Of course this is just my opinion. I'm no Cooper or "expert".
 
and this has nothing to do with readiness conditions... it has to do with safety, which is a completely different subject from the topic of this thread.

I don't think that's true. "Safety" is a much abused (and political) term that covers everything from human procedures to devices that prevent spontaneous ignition. But how ready to fire a gun is and how much resistance to firing it has are two sides to the same coin.

We cock the hammer to make a more accurate shot, and we decock or make safe for handling. We would not do those things if there was no concern for either making the gun "more ready" or making it "more safe". You can go one direction or the other, but it is virtually impossible to do both at once.

If you would prefer to call it "less ready" rather than "more safe", that's fine, but we make guns "less ready" for a reason, and it is increased handling safety.
 
Revised conditions of readiness
I'm not suggesting that these will catch on, but I think it is worth discussing since guns have changed since Cooper first came up with his conditions.

Guns haven't changed all that much since Cooper developed his revised conditions of readiness or carry (most call it the latter). Cooper also did not intend it to cover all semi auto pistols or revolvers. It was intended for single action semis like the 1911, Hi-Power, etc. The conditions cannot be "adapted" to fit all other designs.

The conditions are simple and clear and apply to specific guns. Making them more complex and confusing does not help.

tipoc
 
Not nearly enough decimal places for my liking.

I think we should include irrational numbers.
 
Not nearly enough decimal places for my liking.

I think we should include irrational numbers.

There aren't enough "Likes" in the world for this one...even if we had that feature!

Seriously...there are some people who will get irrational over this topic. Thankfully, they haven't shown up here.

Yet, anyway...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top