Revisit: Buckshot vs Birdshot for HD

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RNB65

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Last night I saw a fascinating episode of "Impact: Stories of Survival" on Discovery Health that really shed a lot of light on the buckshot vs birdshot debate. Young guy working in a grocery store was shot TWICE at close range (6-8 feet) by a robber with a pistol grip shotgun. They showed the actual video from the store cameras of the guy being shot. VERY ugly scene.

Video shot at the hospital of some of the pellets being removed in surgery showed them to clearly be buckshot, most likely 00Buck. They were big pellets.

The enlightening part is that the kid was NOT incapacitated after being shot twice in the upper chest at close range with buckshot. He lost a lot of blood and suffered a life threatening injury to be sure, but he was not stopped. He realized that the guy wasn't going to stop shooting until he was dead, so he laid on the floor and played dead after the second shot. After he was sure the guy was gone, he crawled towards the front of the store looking for help.

Not that I needed convincing, but after seeing that show I'll darn sure never use anything smaller than 00buck for HD.


p.s. The bad guy was eventually caught and convicted of killing 4 other people and sentenced to death.
 
It's an ounce of lead at close range. The question is how easily the mass is spread apart and diffused. For birdshot, it's obviously going to be more. For a slug, pretty much none at all. I honestly think that at close range, you are going to have to try really hard to see any difference between 00 buck, and say, #4 buck, which I commonly use for HD as well.
 
The kid got lucky....

He basically got shot 18 times with a .33 handgun, people have survived similar instances - though the odds are defiantely against them.

So how does this make birdshot better for HD?
 
You have a lot of people that will swear by buck every time, even going so far as to discredit any and all possible damage done by bird shot, which itself is a broad term covering a large range of shot.

The truth is the worst possible shot to be hit with is the absolute minimum that will penetrate deep enough, not the opposite.

For smaller birdshot that is a couple feet from the muzzle, far larger birdshot it is a couple yards.

At contact ranges though a load of buckshot is less gruesome than a load of birdshot. The birdshot pretty much destroys all tissue it penetrates in a massive unrepairable wound from inside a couple feet. Buckshot at the same range makes nice clean holes which are quite deadly, but are nice clean repairable holes if you survive. Survive or not, birdshot from within 5 feet and all tissue penetrated is so mangled it is like hamburger.
In fact I really don't think a surgeon could even do much with the tissue from such a wound, it would be like trying to turn hamburger back into a steak.

I would rather survive such a buckshot hit than a birdshot hit.
Of course at practicly any range the birdshot won't do much more than pepper someone or create a gruesome but shallow wound, and buckshot will perform like multiple small pistol rounds reliably.
So buckshot is far more reliable and versatile at multiple ranges. However the way people talk about birdshot here you would think it was never decisive.

Birdshot is basicly effective only slightly further than the muzzle blast of the weapon. Think of it as muzzle blast with teeth. Muzzle blast with teeth creates one of the most horrific wounds possible, similar to what a bang gun does to a large shark underwater.

Another thing that can make birdshot so horrible to get hit with is surgeons are working against the clock, trying to repair things and get someone sewn back up. Big large pellets or bullets can be removed, and the damaged tissue repaired. Birdshot are everywhere, and a real chore to clean up in any timely and safe manner if there is lethal injuries.

Now I am not advocating birdshot. I think something versatile with a wide number of effective reliable ranges, from contact distance to hallway distances is necessary if you use a shotgun for home defense. It also needs to penetrate heavy clothing and light barriers sometimes.
For that reason people should stick with buckshot.
In fact even that is not enough in my opinion with body armor widely employed and even promoted in hip hop and gangster culture now. A rifle with a safe backstop is more reliable.


However smaller pellets are clearly more destructive in situations the bulk of them penetrate deeply enough and also create much less survivable or operable wounds in those situations. For that reason I would say birdshot is deadlier inside a few feet, literaly a few feet, once it turns into yards the buckshot is hands down more effective.
 
So how does this make birdshot better for HD?
Click to expand...

It doesn't. That's the point. There's some folks who will jump up and down and hold their breath until they turn blue swearing that birdshot is as effective as buckshot at HD ranges despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. If 2 rounds of 00buck at spitting distance didn't incapacitate this kid, birdshot certainly isn't going to penetrate deep enough to do it. And this was just a scared kid and not someone flying high on crack or meth.

p.s. The kid made a full recovery. Has some scars and lost some muscle tissue, but otherwise is in great health.
 
That being said, if you fill some ones face with shot, rather it be buck from a 10 ga or Number 8 from a 410. they are going to stop what they are doing.
 
That being said, if you fill some ones face with shot, rather it be buck from a 10 ga or Number 8 from a 410. they are going to stop what they are doing.
Click to expand...

Are you willing to bet your life on that? I'm not.
 
The enlightening part is that the kid was NOT incapacitated after being shot twice in the upper chest at close range with buckshot. He lost a lot of blood and suffered a life threatening injury to be sure, but he was not stopped. He realized that the guy wasn't going to stop shooting until he was dead, so he laid on the floor and played dead after the second shot. After he was sure the guy was gone, he crawled towards the front of the store looking for help.
Click to expand...

So he was stopped, no incapacitated. Shooting him twice convinced him not to move. That is a STOP.
 
Birdshot doesn't do much to paper past 20-30 feet with an 18" HD barrel. I wouldn't trust it on humans. #4 buck is the minimum but since the most likely places I'll be shooting with my shotgun should have at least 300 yards clear I would mostly likely use 00. Keep both ready to load in case I want to choose.
 
OOB will spread about 1" per yard from a Cly choke gun.

CaptMac,

Don't bet anything on that old wives tale you don't want to lose, OK? There's an 18 1/8" factory CYL bore 870P barrel here that will pattern Federal LE127 00 into a 3X5" card at 25 yards...

lpl/nc
 
Lee, as usual, is right, Capt.

The HD 870 here is a cylinder bore albeit with a long forcing cone. Best buck patterns 16" at 20 yards, and 20 at 25. I'm sure I could beat that with the new Fed Vunderbuck loads or similar.

Birdshot will work if close enough. So will buck but close enough with buck is measured in yards, not feet. Since it's impossible to predict the range or conditions of our firefights, I'll stick with 00......
 
Quote:
That being said, if you fill some ones face with shot, rather it be buck from a 10 ga or Number 8 from a 410. they are going to stop what they are doing.

Are you willing to bet your life on that? I'm not.
Click to expand...


yes I am willing to bet my life on that. Buck shot is not some mythical load that if you hit some one with it they go down. Infact The only round that has any realiabilty of a 1 shot stop is the 50 BMG.
 
Dont know about that 50BMG, J. D. Jones wrote he shot a sheep or goat with one and he created a .50 hole in the animal that then proceded to run off. It took another round (dont remeber what caliber) to finish it.
 
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