Birdshot vs Large Animals

[lizziedog1]

The debate over the effectiveness of birdshot against two-legged targets has been covered quite a bit.

What about its effectiveness for defense against four-legged creatures?

Most of the hunting I do is for upland game. Hence, the gun in hand is ususally a scattergun loaded with shells containing small projectiles. Very effective against small feathered targets, but what about larger fur bearing things?

Many areas I hunt in have free-ranging cattle. Actually, if I spot them, I'll try to find another area to hunt in. But sometimes I don't seem any until after I have started the hunt.

Cows tend to move away as if they spot me. There can be a couple of exceptions. Bulls and cows with calves. I know killing or injurying someones cows can be costly. But my life is even more valuable to me.

We also have mountain lions and black bear here. Granted, the odds of seeing any of these animals is remote. As I enter an area that has had sings of cougar activities, I'll fire a shotgun round into the air. I figure that should back any large cat away.

Going back to the subject of this thread.

If some large mammal was to pounce on a hunter armed only with birdshot, does he have any chance. Sure, having a large caliber handgun might help, but if the attack comes quickly, using the gun in hand may be the only option.

I know some bird hunters pocket a couple of rounds of buckshot for the "just in case" moment. Again, time might not allow for someone to slide some buckshot into their shotgun.

I think that any animal that gets a facefull of birdshot at close range should be persuaded to turn around. While it might not be lethal, it would have to sting. Some cattlemen around here have told me that an angry bull might be made angrier by such an act.

So, how effective do you all think birdshot is against larger animals in an attack? Where would you try to place the shot? Would you shoot early to buy yourself time or wait for the animals to get up close for maximum effectiveness?

 

[Hocka Louis]

Hmmm...

 

[Loosedhorse]

I just picked up some 12 gauge Hevi-Shot T shot in 3" shells. The banner on the box says, "Dead Coyote."

I believe, within reasonable distance, it will be quite effective on both species of coyote: 4-legged and 2-legged.

On anything bigger than that, no. As you know, many hunters are even reluctant to use buckshot...on bucks!

(And BTW, a muzzle-contact shot with any shotgun load is going to get a critter to take notice.)

 

[CajunBass]

(And BTW, a muzzle-contact shot with any shotgun load is going to get a critter to take notice.)

I've used a light load of no 8 shot to finish off many a buckshot downed deer. You know the type that are just gasping their last few breaths. A load of no 8 shot at 3-4 feet will blow a roughly 1" hole straight through a deers skull in my experience.

My uncle once shot a nice buck with two loads of no 6 shot, while rabbit hunting. He said the deer jumped up in front of him at a range measured in feet. He threw the gun up and shot without thinking, knocking the deer off his feet. My uncle quickly reloaded his double Parker and finished the job with buckshot. He later told me..."Don't do that boy. I shouldn't have."

On the other hand, I remember reading a story in Outdoor Life magazine years ago about a fellow who killed a black bear in Maine I believe it was. Bear was a big one, and appeared to be healthy as could be. When the sent the hide and whatnot off to the taxidermist, he got a call a few weeks later asking him to come by the taxidermy shop.

When he stopped by the taxidermist showed him the bears skull. There was a hole right in the middle of the bears skull, reaching almost eye to eye. Inside the hole was a fair ammount of birdshot. Both eyes were undamaged. Scar tissued had grown over the hole, which had healed so well that it was undectable from the surface.

Apparently someone had fired a shotgun into the bears head at muzzle touching range. Not only had the bear survived, but it was said to be excellent health when it was killed. So much so that neither the hunter, the guide, or the taxidermist has noticed anything wrong until the skull was skinned out.

Would I use it in a life or death situation? Sure I would. If nothing else you might slow down, or turn the animal buying a couple of seconds to reload with buck or a slug. Always have buck or slugs if you think you might need them.

 

[6x6pinz]

distance is the key. At close range no critter is going to survive a blast from a shotgun. Of course panic can set in and you can empty the shotgun before the critter gets within that effective range.
Last year I took a coyote with my 28ga at 30yds, he was going after a quail I had dropped and I was not about to let him have the quail. I was just using 7.5 shot. I have shot a lot of predators with shotguns, mostly 12ga. 7.5 Bird shot was always my choice as it tended not to damage the pelt as much. Back in the day you could actually make good money hunting predators for their pelts. Never got the opportunity to shoot anything as large as a mountain lion but coyotes and bobcats drop easy.

 

[Onmilo]

Shoot a bear at contact range UNDER the lower jaw and into the brain, just like a suicide.
A bear skull is one THICK piece of bone on the front, top and sides.
It has to be to take a full on paw swat from another bear and survive.
But the underside of that skull is another story, very thin plates held together with cartilage and easily defeated by anything from a .22 on up.

Good to know if a bear is chewing on you and you happen to be armed.

As for birdshot as defense against anything larger than an enraged goose, I don't recommend it.

One thing though, if you do fill someone or somethings hide full of shot, it tends to be fatal in the long run.
The shot can and does migrate to veins and arteries nd can lodge in the heart and brain sometimes causing instant death, it can and does lodge in vital organs, it can and does draw septisemia into the body through the wound channel.
Add lead toxicity to the formula and small shot wounds are a surgeon and recovery doctors wake up shivering in the middle of the night nightmare.

For smaller critters it means an agonizing, crazed with suffering death many days or even weeks after the shooting.

If you need to kill something provide the means to kill it clean.
Nothing out there should have to needlessly suffer because of your ill planning.

 

[MCgunner]

I was dove hunting on one of my leases one year late dove season after deer. I'm sitting against a tree scanning the skies for doves when I catch movement in my peripheral vison. I turn around and a coyote is coming right for me not seeing me. I wait until he's about 25 yards, swing around with my 12 gauge Winchester auto loaded with 7.5 dove loads. He turns 90 degrees and starts to trot off. I blasted him in the head/upper body region, knocked him down, he got up and ran off. He probably died somewhere in the woods. The rancher wanted all coyotes shot, so I did my duty.

For larger animals, larger shot or slugs. Bird shot is for the birds. If I had nothing else, I'd ring a shell and call it a slug in an emergency. Wouldn't do that if I had a slug or two on me.

 

[Shotgun wg]

From personal experience I can say a 2 3/4" #6 20ga will almost blow an 8year old kid in half at close range. I was the kid. I have killed hogs with steal shot #2 3" 12ga. As said before they need to be close.

 

[303tom]

All depends on how close you are & what you consider bird shot ? The Canadian Goose is a damn big bird & I use BB`s & I have seen a White-tail killed at 25 yards with 3in. mag. BB`s.

 

[Steve C]

I know killing or injurying someones cows can be costly. But my life is even more valuable to me.

Must be a city boy if you are afraid of cows.

 

[JohnBT]

When I was a little kid in the '50s my father, uncle and grandfather killed a full grown black bear with #6 high brass - 2 12's - a pump and my grandfather's SxS Stevens hammer gun - and my father's Model 12 20 ga.

It took almost every shell they had on them.

They were walking up a logging trail next to a small creek in a hollow off the family's large apple orchard. They were headed to a high meadow to bird hunt. The bear was coming down and was not happy because 3 guys from W.VA. had been following him for a couple of days down the Blue Ridge. There wasn't anywhere for anybody to go and bear stood in the creek and swatted at them and my grandfather's dog Sparky on the 2-foot-high bank. One of the shotguns got a scratched barrel.

The little dog got beat up and later got the blame for pissing the bear off even more than he was at first.

After they got the bear back to the house with a plow horse and sled, the guys from W.VA. showed up and started hollering about "THEIR BEAR" in front of the women and children. My father went into the house and came out wearing his state police hat and sidearm. They sold the bear to the guys for $15 and told them to never come back on the property for any reason ever.

 

[Fred Fuller]

With any projectile firing weapon, you have to accomplish two things to kill something - PENETRATION and PLACEMENT. Neither by itself will suffice, it takes both. Your projectile/projectiles must be able to penetrate deeply enough to interfere with the function of a vital area, and must be directed in such a way as to impact a place where their path can intersect with vital areas.

Take a look at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html for one example. Not for the squeamish, this is a medical examiner's report of a multiple gunshot shotgun suicide...

 

[IllHunter]

Thanks,

Stories like that are the best jewels on this jewel encrusted site. Thanks for the well told tale.

 

[DAP90]

So, how effective do you all think birdshot is against larger animals in an attack? Where would you try to place the shot? Would you shoot early to buy yourself time or wait for the animals to get up close for maximum effectiveness?

You might get lucky but I doubt it would be very effective.

If I thought I was in danger I would shoot early once and hope the noise dissuaded the attack. If that didn’t work I’d try to wait until close to clubbing distance and go for a head/face shot. If I had time I’d chamber a slug.

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

Must be a city boy if you are afraid of cows.

I think there’s some wisdom in not hunting in the same fields as bulls.

 

[lizziedog1]

A couple of years ago I drew an anterless deer tag for eastern Nevada.

A rancher allowed me to hunt his property. But he warned us about the bull. We spotted the bull and let me tell you he was huge. He didn't threaten us, but he kept his eyes on us the whole time we were in that field.

I was an eerie fealing. You could almost sense that there was a certain distance towards that bull that shouldn't be crossed.

Even though I am a city boy, I am not afraid of cows. I do repect them and give them wide berth. If angry mother cow or bull decides to give charge, you will quickly learn how fast they can move.

 

[DAP90]

I only worry about cows and calves because they might hurt themselves running away when the shooting starts. I don’t want to be responsible for that so I typically go elsewhere if there’s cows close by.

That and if there’s cows in the pocket the pheasants are long gone.

 

[Coyote3855]

My dad broke the stock on a double barreled shotgun when he was charged by a cow with a new calf. He hit the cow on the nose and she lost interest. He didn't shoot her because it was his cow. So there is some danger, particularly cows with calves. I've been charged a couple of times by range bulls, but was always on horse back. I worked in a slaughter house in 1970. I remember it took 12-15 shots to put down an old Hereford bull. #6 shot would not have fazed him.

 

[HarcyPervin]

From personal experience I can say a 2 3/4" #6 20ga will almost blow an 8year old kid in half at close range. I was the kid.

Wait....what now?

 

[Armored farmer]

I know a thing or two about cows and bulls. I also know any bird hunter worth his salt would only be shooting over points.......thus giving him time to swap out his 00cowshot for #8's.

 

[ldhulk]

I have personally seen two large bulls shot with 12 gauge birdshot, one was belligerent and approaching at a trot with his nose out. He had already butted one man thru a barbed wire fence. An ounce and a quarter of no 5's at about 15 yards turned him around and sent him back the way he came. I don't know how badly he was hurt. The other one had decided that he wasn't going to be driven home, away from a herd of the neighbor's cows he had gotten thru the fence to be with. After repeated attempts to drive him away, I shot him in the butt with a load of no. 6's at about 25 yards. He found his way home without further problems after that and never seemed to be much the worse for wear afterward.

 

[Bobson]

I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using bird shot against a four-legged predator, but it must be better than nothing. I wouldn't think one would have time to replace birdshot shells with buckshot in the event of an attack.

I certainly wouldn't shoot preemptively. If charged, I'd fire at least one shot as soon as I had an opportunity, and maybe save the rest for a bit more close up. I'm pretty sure I'd also need a new pair of shorts... this might serve as great motivation to carry a sidearm revolver or other handgun in a heavier caliber when hunting with a shotgun; say a .44 Mag or 10mm.

 

[788Ham]

Onmilo,

How are you going to get that mad bear to hold his head up so you can shoot him under the jaw? Jes' wondering.

 

[Jeff F]

Many areas I hunt in have free-ranging cattle. Actually, if I spot them, I'll try to find another area to hunt in. But sometimes I don't seem any until after I have started the hunt.

Smart man, I have seen a few people messed up bad because of an ornery range cow or steer. I usually carry a round or two of slugs and a couple buckshot shells when I'm chucker hunting.

Must be a city boy if you are afraid of cows.

You must not of spent very much time around Nevada range cattle. They are mostly Charolais and some Lourdais. They can and do get mean and ornery out on the range here. I'm not afraid of them but I am cautious around them. I've been a ranch hand on and off for years and have been chased by them more then once.

 

[BP44]

But any bear that gets stung by birdshot is very likely to defend itself

All I have ever seen them do is haul butt double time when ya hit them with #7's or 8's from about 30 yds bird shot is great for turning critters or keeping 'em out of the trash but I wouldnt go after them with anything less than buck or slugs

I gotta say I take #4 buck when I chucker hunt but for yotes not range cows, I have had enough dealings with cows to realize short of a riled up/taunted bull or cow with a calf that ya sneek up on, you will be able to turn them with standard bird shot at 40 yds. If for some reason they dont stop or turn "and they will" wait 'till 10 yds and bird shot will take a core sample hole out of something and stop most things in North America dead right there.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I shot a fox with a .410 full-choke, one shot from about 50 feet. It was a 2 1/2" shell with 7.5 shot. I shot him broadside out front of my house as he was walking down the edge of the street out front. I thought it would yelp and act up in all manner of ways and cause a real loud commotion, but it literally took two steps and dropped dead, right on the edge of the street!

When I went out to get the carcass, nearly the entire right side of him was mange, no fur at all, just ugly skin and lots of sores. Where the mange was was exactly where the shot was placed, about a 12" diameter pattern centered about just forward of his right ribs. So, his ribs, his neck and part of the right side of his head got hit. When I read below that pellets can move in their veins, I suppose that is one reason he dropped so suddenly, without so much as a wimper.

The way I looked at it, God knew he was in pain with that mange and sent him my way at just the right time! I took pains to dig a nice, deep hole in my lower yard in which to bury the critter. When I saw the ugly fur missing and the sores, I know I did the right thing, even though the main reason I shot was because we have been having neighborhood cats coming up missing due to predators coming too close to our homes.