Revolver for CCW?

[The_Shootist]

This age old debate has probably been almost flogged to death...almost...

I usually switch between a full size 1911 for winter (I use that term loosely here in Texas) carry in an IWB under a jacket, and a Glock 19 for summer carry. For deep concealment in either season its a SP 101 usually stuffed with the FBI load.

Lately though, as cold weather struck and it was time to switch I guess I got lazy and pulled out my 4" bbl 686+ out of the safe for my winter carry. Say what you will about the 1911, its just a lot easier (and faster) I find to clean a revolver. As well you just pick up the Smith, put it in a holster and go - no manual of arms "cocked-and-locked" drills etc.

I carry my 686+ in a nylon IWB from Safariland along with 2 speedloaders, all of which are stuffed with a "milder" 158 gr JHP .357 round (not quite the full bore head-banging stuff but easy to practice with and accurate, particularly in my full size Smith).

I'm thinking....am I REALLY at a disadvantage vs carrying a pistol? Sure, maybe the reloads are slower, but then if you have to reload after 7 rds of .357 you better have taken cover anyway by then.

With an accurate and hard hitting round like the .357 (totalling 21 on me vs 24 in my winter rig 1911) am I REALLY at a disadvantage against all but the most "doomsday" of scenarios - ie 3-4 (+?) multiple attackers in the open? I don't have to frequent areas of gangsta activity, but life being what it is, you never know what can strike, when.

The simplicity and ease of the revolver is starting to grow on me. At this rate, maybe I won't switch back to my Glock in the spring, but rather, a K frame Smith or Ruger GP 100.

 

[JWM]

5-shot snub OK too....

We've all been down this road before. Auto or revolver for personal defense ? Well, for the record, my department issues me the Glock 17 with LE magazines. Thats 18 shots right out of the holster !! Do I normally carry it for off-duty ? Rarely. Most of the time it is my bobbed hammer Chief Special. !! I feel well-armed of duty !!

 

[RWK]

I cannot imagine plausible civilian scenarios where a top-quality .357 magnum revolver, loaded with excellent .357 magnum defensive rounds, will be inadequate, especially with two speed loaders available. Back in ancient times (the ‘40s and ‘50s) when my father was an FBI Special Agent and the lead firearms instructor in the New York City field office, the Bureau used to suggest gunfights were normally subject to the “rule of threesâ€:
> Three seconds
> Three rounds
> Three yards

Unless you are performing “on the line†law enforcement duties or work/live in the most gang/crime prone venues, I believe the “rule of threes†remains valid. In sum, if you do your job – shot placement – with your Smith 686 and good .357 defensive loads, I cannot believe you are anything but well armed.

 

[Tony Mig]

Rossi M68 5 shot snubbie.....

if I can consistantly nail a 10" steel plate at 50 feet with it, then I shouldn't have too much trouble getting at least one good head shot at the same distance or closer. It's very easy to conceal, light, and dependable...you can't ask for much more than that.


if it ever breaks, I'll replace it with a J-frame S&W.

 

[CZF]

I think you are as well armed as a .45. Years ago i was issued a .357
with 125 gr. loads. Felt that I was well armed on-duty as I did when I carried my 1911 (yes) for CCW.


As much as I like my CZs and other autos..and have not owned a
revolver for over a decade..

Nowdays, I'm back to a .357 for HD and CCW if needed.

My girlfriend doesn't like or trust autos. She is a Gulf War vet
and despises the M16 and M9..finds the Revolver much more to
her liking.

The Taurus 617 is a Seven-shot snubnose stoked with the fine
Remington 125 gr. JHP. A 1970s type gun, with a 1980s type
load. I'm considering Glasers.

A four-inch 686+ is probably a better gun, but i'd rather go to a
model 610 in the future.

 

[The_Shootist]

Actually, the reason I posted this message is due to watching CSI (the Las Vegas version) on Thursday Feb 12.

THAT was the definitive "doomsday" scenario we could be involved in. One of the above posters thought it unlikely to need a semi unless necessarily involved in LEO duties.

In this episode, two cops drive up to an all night Wal-Mart type retail outlet.
Rookie cop goes in for some misc purchase and gets shot by bad guys doing a robbery in progress.

Veteran goes in after hearing shots and in a classic "old school, in your face gunfight" (one of the best I've seen on network TV by the way) dusts
two of the bad guys.

The veteran cop is carrying a Beretta 92 with 17 rounds of 9mm and goes through at least 10 without reloading to kill 2 bad guys and wound a 3rd.

That almost made me retire my 686 on the spot and yank the 1911 out of the safe....too may times I've been in a similiar situation (shopping late at night) with just my SP 101. We all know the bad guys like to play at night....and just by doing some innnocent shopping could be invlved in something instantly ferocious requiring either Hi Caps or at least the quick reloads a pistol allows.

Ok....so maybe I'm paranoid with that scene fresh in my mind, but I shudder thinking about ramming home a 7 rd speedloader while some scumbag is trying to level a Tech on me.

 

[The_Shootist]

Revolver for CCW

By the way, for its worth, the veteran cop who sent the two bad guys to shout at the Devil was (as part of a separate story line) kinda hard core.

Not dirty like taking money from bad guys etc, just kinda belonging to the
"Toby Keith" style of justice. You know, "Beer for My Horses" and so on.

Col Askins would have been proud.

 

[Poohgyrr]

Given the same skill as with whatever else is available for carry, a person could do worse than a Smith .357. And a snub second has been effective for quite a while.

 

[Boats]

A few points.

I will never change what I do based on a fictional portrayal.

Unless you are a cop, you are under no obligation to do anything.

If you decide to do something, part of carrying a 17 shot 9mm is the ability to make some noise by wasting shots. A wheelgunner had better have good shot discipline and best keep count.

After all, if were all about what can be done by fictional cops, Harry Callahan sets the standard for revolver CQB.

All told, I still carry a Commander sized 1911A1 and a reload. As soon as I get any good at it, I will be comfortable with a revolver and a speed strip.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Are you at a disadvantage?

Only if you simply can't shoot a revolver, and still carry it anyways.

Then again, if you couldn't shoot a semi-auto worth crap and you carried a semi you'd be at a disadvantage, too.

Carry what the hell you want, carry what you shoot well, and perhaps most important, carry what you're comfortable with.

I never pay attention to people who want to razz me for carrying a snubbie .38.

Why? Because I can shoot that snubbie better than a lot of those semi-auto devotees. And I can reload it faster, too.

 

[Arc Angel]

Hello, Shootist! Like you I, also, switch-carry between a 45 auto and an S&W 686. I, also, carry extra ammo for each. It needs to be recognized that the 357 DOES have a slower rate of fire - due primarily to greater recoil and muzzle flash. Still, it's putting out an excellent hard hitting round that is well-documented for getting the job done. Like the 45, the 357 is a, 'stopper' rather than simply a, 'killer'.

Cleaning shouldn't be a primary consideration for which gun to carry. There's always Ballistol or Dunk-It if you want to get the job done fast! The way I see it: I like the 686 because I shoot it very straight; and it's, often, easier for my old hands to operate. The disadvantage comes from (as you might suspect) having to use a revolver against multiple assailants! You don't have to be a, 'rocket scientist' to realize; and there is a large body of evidence to substantiate that autos work better against multiple targets. (Unless, of course, you're Jerry Miculek - which most of us aren't.)

One on one, I'm comfortable with a revolver; in a multiple target scenario, I'd want to use an auto; and the longer the gunfight continues the more I'm, again, going to want that auto. (By the way, I like that 3:3:3 rule. It seems to agree with all of the TV convenience store shootouts I've watched.) What's the moral of this? Well, for one thing, don't do what I did several years ago. Buy your milk and bread from the local convenience store BEFORE the sun goes down. These people are like vampires; they're most active after dark.

 

[chaim]

Actually, the reason I posted this message is due to watching CSI (the Las Vegas version) on Thursday Feb 12.

Um, not to give you too hard a time, but you are actually thinking about changing what you will carry based on watching a fictional TV drama where the action was designed to be as exciting as possible !? Snicker, snicker

Ok, you have a seven round revolver that you can carry comfortably. That gives you one or two fewer rounds than a 1911 loaded with either the standard 7 round or newer 8 round mag plus one in the chamber. I don't see the problem even if you are worried about multiple assailants. Seven rounds means 2 double taps and one Mozambique- you have enough for three assailants, one with 3 rounds in him and two with 2 rounds. If you really think you'll need more either practice reloading with speed loaders, with practice you won't really be much (if any) slower than mag reloads, or you can put a lightweight J-frame in your pocket for 5 more shots (1 double tap and one Mozambique or two double taps and an extra round just in case).

I think you should be more than fine with the revolver. Even law enforcement usually doesn't need the high-cap choices they make now days, "civilian" carry- don't worry too much about it. If you take the time to be good with the wheelgun it should be fine for you.

That said, if you are still bothered, then switch to the auto. In self-defense situations, the number one (by far) most important variable is self-confidence. If you don't have the necessary confidence in your equipment, I don't care how good it is or how suited to the task at hand it is, you are at a disadvantage. So, the gear you have is fine, but if you can't get your head around that then you have to switch back.

 

[RWK]

Shootist,

In my first post to this thread, I suggested “I cannot imagine plausible civilian scenarios where a top-quality .357 magnum revolver, loaded with excellent .357 magnum defensive rounds, will be inadequate, especially with two speed loaders available.†You later commented “One of the above posters [me] thought it unlikely to need a semi unless necessarily involved in LEO duties."

A four-inch barrel, seven round, S&W 686+ is a very formidable weapon, when loaded with top-quality .357 magnum rounds and employed by someone who knows how to shoot. A TV show, by definition, is a fictional dramatization. In the “real worldâ€, what are the chances of your being involved in that “Las Vegas†scenario? I respectfully suggest they are quite remote.

Of all my weapons, I suspect my Remington 870 shotgun (12 gauge, accommodating 3.25 inch magnum loads) provides superior defense – far better than any handgun. I do not carry it for many, obvious reasons. In essence, I make a trade-off between convenience and effectiveness. We all do so every day – you carry two speedloaders, not ten, even though there could be unrealistic, hypothetical circumstances when ten would be required. Common sense – and worlds of experience – strongly suggests that your Smith 686+ (loaded with a top-rated .357 magnum, with two speedloaders, and with a cool-headed, proficient marksman ) is much more than adequate for any sensible scenario.

With best regards.

 

[pwrtool45]

There are always hypothetical situations that will require just one more bullet, regardless of your carry piece-- be it a 5-shot revolver or a 17-shot Glock. If that bothers you, put the revolver back in the safe and carry your 1911 (or procure a Glock, if the 1911 doesn't hold enough ammo). You have to feel comfortable.

In the extreme circumstance of having multiple opponents, my sole argument in the issue of weapon capacity is that no matter how much you practice, facing multiple opponents is a small step away from suicide no matter what you're armed with. There is simply no reasonable expectation that you will come out alive when faced with any number of even remotely determined opponents. This statement becomes exponentially more accurate as the number of opponents increases. Even a Grandmaster class IPSC shooter would die in the execution of a real El Presidente, even if s/he were in full game gear.

Imagine you just get finished cleaning your 686/1911/G17 and, upon holstering, the door is forcefully opened and three men armed with shotguns enter the room at great speed and seperate. Now, imagine how much good the extra bullets in the Glock will do you. The end result is the same.

Focus on what you *can* do. Pick the weapon that you shoot "fastest and bestest," so long as capacity is reasonable. Be prepared to fire and get away from the people firing back. A reasonable capacity varies from person to person. If you're ever actually required to discharge that weapon, chances are you won't even empty an O/U derringer. OTOH, you may well empty a Glock 17. (However, I serously doubt that anyone outside a military/SWAT environment has lived to discharge 17+ consecutive rounds in a gunfight without either dying or resorting to bullet-hose syndrome.) It could happen, but well, see the above comments.

 

[BluesBear]

A big part of my philosophy of handgun useage is to use it to "fight" my way to hard cover. Once there I'll "defend" my perimeter until help arrives.

 

[Maddock]

Just as RWK said, it’s all a compromise. I too would prefer his 12 gauge (or mine) in a fight to any of my handguns, but I don’t want to carry it on my daily rounds. Get comfortable with what you carry or carry what you are comfortable with. How many rounds are in a gun is much less important than what you can do with them.
I feel at no great disadvantage with a six shot revolver, much less a seven round one. Heck, my all-the-time is a 442 – a five shot 38.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Only as a backup. For that much size and weight and equal ability across both platforms, I rather have a full-size automatic instead of 6 rounds of .357 Magnum.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Doubletap. Speaking of doubletaps there's no such thing as trigger reset on a revolver, is there?

 

[BluesBear]

Yes there is trigger reset. If you don't release the trigger completely it won't engege the hammer.

There is a hinged sear on the hammer that is engaged by the tail of the trigger for the double action pull. The trigger has to be released far enough to slide back down past it in order to re-engage for the next shot.

On a S&W you can release the trigger very slowly until it almost resets and then try to pull the trigger and it will feel locked. This happens quite often when the rebound spring is shortened in order to try and lighten the weight of the trigger pull.

I could take and post some photos if that would be of help.

 

[TonyB]

Even Col.Cooper(1911 guru) has said if you can't get the job done in 5 or6 or 7 rounds,you've made some seious mistakes......I carry a 5 shot 357 and 1 speedloader in pants pocket and 1 in jacket.......I feel well armed for the most part...but..lately I seem to be getting into the IDPA mentality of 6 bad guys,if I'm in this situation I'd much rather have my G17.I'll most likely never be ib this situation though..it's a trade off I guess.Good hits are all that count in the end.

 

[The_Shootist]

686+ For CCW

I like pwrtool45's reponse about there being "no reasonable chance of surviving a fight against determined multiple opponents. That sounds about right. But really, for what a civilian is likely to encounter, IS there such a thing (probability wise) about encountering "determined opponents"?

There are no guarantees in life, but I suspect any convenience store stick-up artists would be more prone to firing a couple wild shots then running. Trying to earn a hood "Iron Cross" likely isn't what their all about.

Unless you're real unlikley and walk into a Hollywood shootout type situation .

 

[charleym3]

wheel gun for CCW

Absolutely. I carry a 625 and 2 more moon clips. I feel comfortably armed. In talking with people that have been there and done that, the common thread is that after the first shot, give BGs a chance and they'll run.

 

[Dienekes]

You are only at a disadvantage if you miss. So don't. Reloading is much less of an issue that way! I carried a .357/125 with two speedloaders for many years as an LEO and never felt "undergunned". The only difference now (besides being retired) is that I have a 442 as an "always" gun and BUG to the .357.

Got a long-time soft spot for 1911s, and I have a couple of BHPs and a SIG 220 in the safe. I shoot them when in the mood but 95% of the time the wheelgun is the gun of choice.

As someone said, the "rule of threes" is pretty valid. Besides, your mind is your primary weapon. A gun is just a tool.

 

[flip180]

Man, I love the search button.

I'll bring this one back to life. I haven't owned alot of handguns and I've only recenlt started carrying with in the past 8 months. I've spent some time in the Army as an 11B, and it isn't a matter of how many rounds that are put down range, but where they're put. My CCW of choice is my 5-shot 642 that sits in my pocket now. I have a speed loader, but I usually don't carry it. I have a Kimber .45 that I don't trust. Yeah 1700 rds. and less than 20 malfunctions, but they're just that, malfuctions. Thay is one thing I don't want to happen when I need the gun. Revos are pretty much dead bang reliable unless something catastophic happens. Even if the .45 was on carry status, I would find myself pocketing the 642 more than the .45. As far as the mulitple attacker thing goes. If that happens, you were probably in the wrong part of town at the wrong time of day and probably doing or saying something to get you in that type of situation.

Robert.

 

[Gunz]

I'll bite on this one. I also switch between a 686 and a 1911 Gvt size. I wear both in vertical shoulder rigs (comfort and retention). I also asked myself what would be a bad scenario. True, TV and movies are written to maximize drama and excitement, but there can be some food for thought. The screenwriters had to get ideas from somewhere; sometimes real discussions from real people. Being undergunned is when you live in a huge city, being in the worst neighborhoods at night (or even in the daytime in some parts), and get into areas with seedy characters and business. Part of planning is to plan ahead to not be in those situations. Let the full time law enforcement go to those places. I feel fine with 6-rounds of 357/158 or 180. I do not think most people practice enough to get those revolver reloads quick enough from speedloaders. I know I am not that slick, and that is after practicing for over 10 years. So I compromise with weight. I carry a second gun. It is usually a 9mm because I can shoot it left hand as well as my right hand. Plus, there is no time to reload the first gun if I am in that much of a panic. I love second guns as the "reload."