Revolver malfunction day at the range

[Trebor]

My CPL class last Saturday was "Revolver Malfunction Day" for two of my students.

One student had the cylinder in her S&W J-Frame Airweight fail to index properly. When she tried to pull the trigger the cylinder would not rotate and the hammer would not go back. The "immediate action" fix was to manually rotate the cylinder *backwards* about 1/4" until it locked up correctly. Then she was able to make the gun fire. This happened to her twice during the class.

Another student wound up with three cases that would not eject from her S&W J-frame. I punched them out with a pen I had in my pocket. I tried prying one out with a fingernail, but it was pretty stuck. While I might have been able to get them out that way eventually, the pen was quicker. Fortunately, the problem didn't happen again.

I was too busy running the class to get the exact detals on what model revolvers they were. They were both S&W J-frames of fairly recent production (they both had locks) and I believe they were both Airweight or Titanium or Scadium guns. I didn't get the ammo details either, except both shooters were shooting .38 Specials, although I don't know if the stuck cases were factory loads or reloads.


Just goes to show that nothing mechanical is perfect, so always plan for Murphy.

 

[pps]

I've never had the first problem you describe, but sounds like the hand may not be engaging properly. The second I've had happen with my 340pd with hot .357 loads.

 

[Oyeboten]

J Frames can lock-up if the Ejector un-screws a little, which can happen from recoil over however many rounds being fired...and or, Ejector Rods need to be securely 'tight' to prevent this...

Same may hold true for other smallish-frame Revolvers...


Cylinder Bores having got dirty from gasses blowing back around the ase's fronts...and or not being cleaned often enough, can occasion stubborn-ejection of empty Cases in Revolvers, also...as can not rightly re-sized Ammo...

 

[loop]

Typically when the cylinder fails to rotate the hand spring is broken. Normally the gun will cycle properly if you just aim it toward the ground and pull the hammer back. Gravity drops the hand in place to rotate the cylinder.

Eliminates double action fire, but does not disable the gun if you've experienced it before.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm betting the first problem where the cylinder didn't index correctly was the shooters fault. She probably didn't make sure the cylinder was in the correct position when she closed it after reloading. She probably didn't make sure it was engaged.

 

[mnrivrat]

Revolvers are my main platform and I have been shooting a variety of them for 40+ years .

They are just mechanical devices that can hang up or fail for a number of reasons - knowing how they work, and how to quickly get them cleared and going is just as important as clearance drills for auto's.

Proper maintenance is important, and knowing what can go wrong is imperative in my opinion. Cylinder lock , and failure to extract are common revolver failures, and are due to a number of things.

Many revolver shooters are very aware of the ejector rod loosening on S&W guns in particular. On a carry gun the threads need to be cleaned and a drop of blue loctite, or some similar moderate thread lock should be applied. Chambers should be kept clean and polished if necessary on guns that need to always work. Ammo used should always be checked for good function in the gun, before being depended on. Particularly if the carry ammo is hotter than the practice ammo being used.

Shooting .38 Spl out of a .357 mag gun is just fine, but the chambers need to be cleaned before switching back to .357 mag or you can get extraction problems.

And - on and on , I think most get the drift here. Common problems can mostly be avoided by knowing how to run a revolver. Failures need to be anticipated and quick field service procedures should be part of the training for those who depend on a firearm to always work.

The last (and only) lockup I had with my carry revolver was during an informal shooting session when a load of old rounds of .32S&W was fired in the gun (the gun is .32 H&R magnum chambered), ejected, and a fresh batch inserted.
Upon closing ,the cylinder locked up. The cause was unburned powder from the old ammo migrating under the extraction star. Not a very typical problem when using good ammo in a clean gun , but not impossible to get something like it happening at the wrong time, so knowing what can happen, and how to clear the problem is certainly of value to revolver shooters.

 

[fastbolt]

CCW class, huh?

Long-time, experienced revolver owners & users involved, or a couple of folks who may have just picked out (or had picked out for them by a well-meaning friend or family member) a conveniently sized small revolver?

Over the years I've frequently been amazed and sometimes appalled at the way some folks maintain and manipulate the handguns they're carrying for CCW purpose. Some folks seem comfortable with relying on what might be described as minimally acceptable familiarization with a firearm chosen to be carried as a dedicated defensive weapon. It happens.

In my years working as a firearms instructor (including working with CCW licensees) I've observed that shooter-related issues have been much more common than either ammunition or gun-related functioning issues (with ammunition-related issues happening more than actual gun-related issues).

Revolvers are pretty reliable and forgiving in many respects.

Sometimes it's the simplest things that cause revolver owners some issues, though. Things which aren't really fairly what you might call 'gun problems'.

Unfortunately, it's not at all uncommon to see a relatively new revolver owner/user 'short-stroke' a double action revolver trigger when making a subsequent shot. Full trigger recovery is important when it comes to the functioning of a revolver.

J-frames with short barrels do have short extraction. No real way to get around it from a mechanical standpoint. Using a good technique, however, does help a lot of folks get the empties out of their cylinders in most common circumstances. How many folks receive more than cursory training in unloading/reloading revolvers nowadays? Especially when the shorter barreled models are used?

Lots of new revolver shooters tend to only slightly tip their open revolver cylinders downward at the rear, thinking the extractor will remove the empty cases with a gentle push on the front of the extractor rod. I don't see a lot of relatively 'new' revolver users trained to hold the gun so the open cylinder is facing directly downward and then smartly functioning the extractor with a couple of pumping motions. Fouling (especially with 'inexpensive' and/or LRN or LSWC loads) and heating/swelling of fired cases can start to introduce some potential sticky extraction issues, as can using loads which don't have nickeled cases.

I recently had one of our agency folks express frustration while trying to empty the fired cases from his J-frame's cylinder so he could reload during an off-duty course of fire. Afterward I demonstrated how to more effectively empty the fired cases, using the same ammunition he was using. The empty cases were briskly extracted and removed from the cylinder compared to how they were weakly extracted when he did it. The difference? Technique.

Obviously I have no way to know what happened with your two students, but I've had the opportunity to see what may be similar occurrences over the years.

In many ways I miss the days when LE carried revolvers and had the opportunity to gain some good foundation skills when it came to revolver use ... (although just like today, not that all of them, or even most of them, learned more than they needed to in order to qualify ).

While there are a number of mechanical issues that can occur with traditional double action and double action only revolvers, it still often seems to be the shooter that can make even a good quality revolver in good condition skip a beat now and again ...

 

[rcmodel]

She probably didn't make sure the cylinder was in the correct position when she closed it after reloading.

It makes no differance.

A properly functioning S&W will not lock up because you closed the cylinder wrong, or missed the locking bolt notch halfway between chambers.

If it's not in the locking bolt notch when you close it, it will be in the next one as soon as you pull the trigger or cock it.
And you won't even be able to feel the difference.

rc

 

[Sport45]

A properly functioning S&W will not lock up because you closed the cylinder wrong, or missed the locking bolt notch halfway between chambers.

True. In fact rotating the cylinder after closing does nothing more than enhance the turn line since there's nothing holding the bolt down.

 

[Trebor]

or a couple of folks who may have just picked out (or had picked out for them by a well-meaning friend or family member) a conveniently sized small revolver?

Very astute observation. I believe the "had picked out for them by a family member" is probably the case. Both shooters were relatively new shooters, both were female, and both were signed up for the class by their husbands, and they both had pretty new J-frames.

I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect some spousal influence in the handgun choice.

 

[Shear_stress]

Most likely she was not letting the trigger reset fully while shooting in double action. This will cause the exact symptoms you reported.

 

[General Geoff]

Shear_stress, that sounds like the most likely culprit. Don't assume mechanical malfunction when human error is possible.

 

[AK103K]

Upon closing ,the cylinder locked up. The cause was unburned powder from the old ammo migrating under the extraction star.

This is usually the results of not unloading/dumping the empties properly. Same goes somewhat for the hanging cases.

A revolver should be emptied "muzzle up", and done briskly. This helps keep any unburnt powder or crap left in the case from falling under the extractor star as the cases come out. A good "slap" on the ejector rod, especially with the snubbies is usually better than a nice "push". Even then, its not all that unusual with the shorter guns to have one or two empties hang.

Its also best to put a drop of Loc Tite on the ejector rod right off, as it will eliminate the backing out problem. It doesnt hurt to put it on all the side plate screws either, but especially the one what holds the cylinder in place. That way its there when you go to reload.

 

[Trebor]

Most likely she was not letting the trigger reset fully while shooting in double action. This will cause the exact symptoms you reported.

That will cause this problem, but was not the cause in this case. I tried her revolver and also had the problem and I know I reset the trigger properly.

 

[tipoc]

Revolvers can lock up more often than many folk like to admit. Most often for the reasons cited above.

Some years back I took to carrying a small brush with me to the range specifically for my wheelguns. If a small bit of powder residue, or dirt, gets under the star extractor cylinder rotation can be effected and the gun locked up. The brush, or the tip of a knife, can clear that out when it can't be blown out.

Powder residue on the front of the cylinder can close the b/c gap and impede rotation of the cylinder as well. This makes the trigger harder to pull.

I agree with what others have said though. Keep the gun clean and be familiar with your firearm.

tipoc