Revolver-only .45 ACP with long OAL

[Alec]

I'm looking for someone to sanity check this load plan before starting work-up.

The goal is to make 230gr revolver-only bowling pin destroyers. Why the long OAL? I don't have any autos-- and if I did, I wouldn't want these to chamber-- and I want to keep pressures down while building as much velocity as possible.

Colt 1917
230 gr copper plated round nose
OAL: 1.380" (this is 0.150" over SAAMI max OAL for 230 gr .45 acp ball)
6.0 gr WW231 (0.2 gr below max FMJ load, OAL 1.260" in Speer #14).

I already tested for chambering and that's about as long as I can comfortably load them. This should leave the bullet seated 0.130" into the case, and the plating is soft enough that the taper crimp cuts a cannelure into the bullet a bit. It took a couple of good whacks with a puller to get the bullet out. I'll test for back-out, but even if it happens, the chamber throats are so long that the bullet would pop out completely before locking up the cylinder. At that point I'd consider trying a roll crimp.

I think I've got most things considered. I'd love to hear any advice, dire warnings, pitfalls, or recommendations for improvement before I start.

 

[Alec]

Here's what it looks like.

 

[Walkalong]

I'd love to hear any advice, dire warnings, pitfalls, or recommendations for improvement before I start.

I edited out "hot". I suspect what you want is more velocity at SAMMI pressure using the longer OAL. The gun doesn't care if they are loaded longer, or you load them longer and use more powder to get more velocity, as long as you stay at/under max SAMMI pressure for the caliber. The gun is rated for that pressure, and it has no idea, nor does it care, what OAL is used and what velocity is obtained, it only cares at what pressure it is done.

 

[IlikeSA]

One thing I have found when seating bullets long is there is less pressure buildup before the bullet exits the cartridge, particularly with a weak crimp. This in turn leads to less velocity. I'd rather go standard length and load with Ramshot Enforcer. Supposedly it launches a 230 grain bullet around 1050 while keeping pressure less than +p.

Here is an article extolling its virtues: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/

 

[quaid]

Have you considered 45 rimmed cases to prevent use in auto loaders?

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

 

[Alec]

Have you considered 45 rimmed cases to prevent use in auto loaders?

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

Yes, but preventing chambering is a fringe benefit, not a primary goal. I'm also having a lot of trouble finding a Dillon shell plate for .45 AR. If I find what I need for auto rim, I will likely use this same work-up plan anyway.

I edited out "hot". I suspect what you want is more velocity at SAMMI pressure using the longer OAL. The gun doesn't care if they are loaded longer, or you load them longer and use more powder to get more velocity, as long as you stay at/under max SAMMI pressure for the caliber. The gun is rated for that pressure, and it has no idea, nor does it care, what OAL is used and what velocity is obtained, it only cares at what pressure it is done.

Yes, that's my understanding: a longer OAL with no other change lowers pressure. If you add more powder, you bring the pressure back up. So there should be a sweet spot where increasing the OAL and adding more powder results in no net change in pressure, but with more gas output (making better use of a longer barrel). I suppose I'll have gone too far when I start to see burning powder exiting the muzzle.

 

[reddog81]

What is the primary goal? I'm guessing you will see no benefit from such a long OAL. One benefit of shooting out of a revolver is that you can use any bullet shape and the OAL isn't as critical, but seating that far out seems odd. If a long OAL makes you feel more comfortable I'd seat to 1.3.

I'm pretty sure the long OAL will prevent the rounds from fitting in any 45 ACP magazine so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

 

[Alec]

One benefit of shooting out of a revolver [...] the OAL isn't as critical

I disagree, I can't see how the relationship between pressure and OAL is any different than with an auto-- at least until after the bullet jumps the gap, but since pressure curve in .45 seems to peak before the bullet even reaches the forcing cone, that's not when you'd see a pressure-related failure anyway.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

One problem is with your crimp cutting the coating. It rips the coating the coating off as the bullet exits the brass. Seating deeper allows the case to grip the bullet better and allows a lighter crimp. Seating long does lower the pressure, allowing a heavier charge, if that is your goal.

 

[edwardware]

I think you'll see more velocity and knockdown gain from heavily crimping a more appropriate bullet. Plated bullets are tender and round nose is the worst profile for knocking pins off the table.

I suggest finding a cast SWC, and crimping to aid in compete combustion and higher velocity.

 

[Walkalong]

One thing I have found when seating bullets long is there is less pressure buildup before the bullet exits the cartridge, particularly with a weak crimp. This in turn leads to less velocity. I'd rather go standard length and load with Ramshot Enforcer. Supposedly it launches a 230 grain bullet around 1050 while keeping pressure less than +p.

Here is an article extolling its virtues: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/

The original Ramshot data (Which was very limited unlike today) had some very optimistic data for .45 ACP and Enforcer.

 

[Walkalong]

As pointed out, you will need good neck tension. Don't over crimp them.

 

[Toprudder]

I have a S&W 625 in 45acp, and I could load the RMR 230 Hardcore Match bullets at SAAMI max of 1.275. Those bullets have to be loaded short (1.200" in my case) in order to pass the plunk test in some of my autos with a little room to spare.

However, I loaded up some test loads with those bullets seated to 1.245", as this OAL would allow them to work both in the 625 and a S&W 1911 that I have. I ran them across the chrono and got the following:

BE-86 6.9gn, Winchester WLP, Speer large primer brass.
S&W 1911. 891.4fps, 6.3sd, 16es.
S&W 625 828.4fps, 20.0sd, 55es

This load in the 625 was amazingly accurate (for me).

If I were to put a tight crimp on them, I definitely would do the crimp separately from the seating process. A Lee FCD would be good here. A good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth would also help prevent cutting the plating as well.

My 625 requires the use of moon clips, so an extreme crimp would not be a problem. However, it could be a problem for any gun that headspaces on the case mouth, so I put a more normal crimp on mine.

 

[mcb]

Watch over crimping plated bullets you will have the plating start to peel off the bullet. I always found better retention with plated bullet with little or no crip just take the bell out of the case. Setting that long though you may still have bullet jump if your loaded them to higher velocities. I would try an under-size sizing dies before I tried a heavy crimp on plated bullets.

I agree with others above a round nose bullet is not going to be your best choice for Pins. Something with a large frontal area. Load those RN bullet backwards if anything.

 

[reddog81]

I disagree, I can't see how the relationship between pressure and OAL is any different than with an auto-- at least until after the bullet jumps the gap, but since pressure curve in .45 seems to peak before the bullet even reaches the forcing cone, that's not when you'd see a pressure-related failure anyway.

I never said the OAL isn't important. I said when using a revolver the OAL isn't as critical. The OAL is still a factor in the pressure. Just because you're shooting a revolver doesn't mean you should load as long as possible.

A pressure related failure is going to be caused by a double charge or doing something else completely wrong. An extra 1/8" in OAL in 45 ACP isn't going to make much difference in the pressure. If you were using a powder that filled the case up right to the base of the bullet than adjusting the OAL would have a greater impact.

No one is saying the long OAL won't work. It's just that your not going to get any benefit. If your worried about pressure, drop the powder charge down a bit and seat like normal. For bowling pins you'd be better off using a SWC design or something else with more of a blunt nose.

 

[mcb]

Overall length can have a fairly dramatic effect on pressure. Less so on actual velocity but there are some gains to me made loading long assuming you don't negatively effect other aspects (bullet retention, accuracy, feeding/chambering, etc). The following data is theoretical taken from Quickloads. Actual real world data might be different (ie in your gun the first load might be faster or slower, higher or lower pressure, etc) but Quickloads does a very good job at show how changes can effect things.

45 ACP
230gr FMJ
1.25 OAL
5.3gr HP-38
17,100 psi
854 fps

If we bump the OAL out to 1.375 but leave the powder charge unchanged

45 ACP
230gr FMJ
1.375 OAL
5.3gr HP-38
11,800 psi (over 30% reduction in peak pressure)
787 fps ( only about an ~8% loss in velocity)

Now leaving the longer OAL fixed I increased the powder charge until I got the same peak pressure as the original load

45 ACP
230gr FMJ
1.375 OAL
6.44 gr HP-38
17,100 psi
906 fps (same pressure but a ~6% boost in velocity, ~12.5% boost in kinetic energy)

I am sure with a faster powder it would have less effect and a slower burning powders should benefit a bit more but I thought it was interesting.

 

[reddog81]

Quickloads is known to work exceptionally well at predicting bottle necked rifle velocities and pressures. Straight walled pistol data should be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't bet my gun on those results.

FWIW the max charge listed on Hornady reloading center is 5.3 grains for a 230 grain bullet.

 

[mcb]

Quickloads is known to work exceptionally well at predicting bottle necked rifle velocities and pressures. Straight walled pistol data should be taken with a grain of salt. I wouldn't bet my gun on those results.

FWIW the max charge listed on Hornady reloading center is 5.3 grains for a 230 grain bullet.

I agree straight wall cartridge take a bit more tweaking to get good results in Quickloads (I have used it for everything from 38/200 to 450 Bushmaster and it can be made to work with straight wall cartridges but you have to do a bit more ground work).

But that was why my disclaimer at the beginning of the post, "Actual real world data might be different (ie in your gun the first load might be faster or slower, higher or lower pressure, etc)". The differences are what was important to the point I was trying to make. For that Quickloads does that pretty good (without burn powder and hooking up transducers) even with straight wall cartridges. I also did a quick and dirty tweak to the parameter in Quickloads to match real world data the 5.3 gr example load approximately matched the pressure reported in Hodgdon's online data base for a similar load. It was not perfect but close enough to show how OAL changes can effect pressure and velocity.

 

[thomas15]

If you are asking for opinions or advice mine would be to practice your marksmanship skills and not depend on super atomic ammo to better your score.

 

[Alec]

Thanks for everyone's input. I worked up to 6.0 gr with one round backing out. Accuracy was better than expected, but pin knockdown still left something to be desired. I think the advice about using something other than round nose is the ticket here, I'll try that next.

In any case, I'm not willing to go far beyond this load without a chrono. Should I pick one up, I'll get some numbers posted here for those interested.