Rice comes up with a plan to prevent rape in the Sudan

[BeLikeTrey]

What Condelezza Should've said...

C.Rice: "Ok you stop these rapes and murders, I want your promise."
Sudan: " You send money?"
C.RICE: "No, we send THEM guns"
Sudan: "We stop right away"

 

[Kurush]

jfruser, I am not saying that everyone was as bad as the King Leopold, but at the same time I have a lot of problems with your rosy assessment of colonialism. Conquering a country and forcing them to participate in your empire as cheap labor is not doing them a favor.

Here's another 'outlier' for you, the Boer war:

In March 1901, he [Lord Kitchener] adopted a scorched earth policy and started stripping the countryside of anything which could be useful to the Boer guerillas; seizing livestock; burning crops and farms; poisioning wells; and forcibly moving the families that lived in them into concentration camps.

The policy eventually led to the destruction of 30,000 farmhouses and about 40 small towns. In all, 116,572 Boer men, women and children were moved into camps, roughly a quarter of the Boer population, along with about 120,000 black Africans. These new tactics soon broke the spirit and the supply lines of the Boer fighters. By December 1901, many of the camps' internees had been allowed to leave, and many of the men joined two new regiments fighting alongside the British, the Transvaal National Scouts and the Orange River Volunteers, to bring the war to an end on May 31, 1902.

[...]

There were a total of 45 tented camps built for Boer internees and 64 for black African ones. Of the 28,000 Boer men captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. So, most Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children, but the native African ones held large numbers of men as well. Even when forcibly removed from Boer areas, the black Africans were not considered to be hostile to the British, and so provided a paid labour force.

The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations were meagre. Women and children of menfolk who were still fighting were given even smaller rations. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 22,074 were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure. In all, about 25% of the Boer inmates and 12% of the black African ones died (although recent research suggests that the black African deaths were underestimated and may have actually been around 20,000).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_war

 

[Rebar]

The simple fact is, Africa in general, and the Sudan in particular, is a complete and utter mess. Our options to nudge things into a better place are very very limited. So while it seems to be a stupid plan, it is likely the best that we can do.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

27,927 Boers (of whom 22,074 were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure.

But no rape ...

Nothing wrong with Lord Kitchener

 

[CAnnoneer]

Quote: whilst there may be some truth in what you say you totally blew any credibilty you mave have had when you mentioned the fat drunk murdering u-boat commander.

Fourays2,

Who is the "fat drunk murdering U-boat commander"? Powel is the former JCS and a retired general, while O'Neal was the secretary of treasury, former Alcoa CEO, who is neither fat nor a U-boat commander. Do you mean Kennedy? If so, what does it matter who asked Rice the question? How does this damage MY credibility?

CAnnoneer

 

[Crosshair]

If they don't stop I guess we can fart in their general direction.

 

[Matt G]

[moderator hat off]

CAnnoneer, I have to admit, I'm impressed by how much I disagree with you. Usually I just don't find myself so moved by a post here. Good job!

Whatever you may personally think of Rice, she's got an IQ that reads like a zip code. She won her chops advising the first Bush administration on Cold War policy. Say what you want-- that went pretty damned well.

She's in an interesting new role, going from the straight-talking National Security Advisor to the diplomatic Secretary of State. Silly questions about whether she thinks the dollar would be the best world currency are the kind of thing that could flub up her actual performance of her duty. And that was indeed the entire point of the question. Unquestionably Rice would candidly say "Yes," but if she says that, she then upon assumption of the office looks like a megalomaniacal imperialist. Hard to get any respect as a diplomat then, eh? But if she demures, then she looks like an idiot who doesn't know what she's talking about. If it had been Powell, the question would undoubtedly have been whether he had stopped beating his wife.


Make fun if y'all want, but it's part of Sec State's job to push the US policy to other nations. Sudan has startlingly high rates of rape, and very little national policy to try to put a stop to it. The culture and the government there tends to treat the victims as the criminals. Our president has made some promises that he will try to address the human rights situation in Africa, and in Muslim countries. With Sudan, he gets a twofer. And who here is willing to raise their hand and say that they're against stopping rape? Anyone?

CAnnoneer, just what would you do to try to address the epidemic of rape in Sudan? Do you have anything constructive to add on the issue?

 

[yucaipa]

After a page and half a little lite at the end of the tunnel,

To actually post in support of the idea that the US should "speak out" and try to make this a little better world for the people who live here,even the ones in Africa.

THANK-YOU, Matt

BTW there was a time in this country when EVERY American regardless of political stripe stood up with pride when their government spoke against bad things in the world, rape,murder,starvation, tyranny etc. times have changed I guess.

 

[spartacus2002]

The problem today is Americans see where our govt's good intentions have turned into muddled meddling in other countries' affairs -- and now, as a result, we have the TSA, the Dept of Fatherland Sekurity, an FBI with a National Security Service, random searches of the NYC subway passengers' bags, a national capitol that looks like an armed camp, and fear of random terrorist strikes.

News flash: other people do not like the US meddling in their affairs, and it has created a backlash. Al-Qaeda is the result, and the war in Iraq has done a tremendous amount to morph Al-Quaeda from an organization into an ideology. The only ways to stamp out an ideology are removing its basis for existence, or genocide.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Matt G,

Thank you for addressing me personally. In a way, it is through voiced disagreements that we can hope to get to the truth. Polite avoidance is just procrastination and false tolerance IMO.

Anyway, to get to Rice. It seems to me you are making excuses for her. Please provide a single example in which she has disagreed with the official line (Dubya/Karl/Dick) and has voiced that disagreement. Is it possible that she is of COMPLETELY the same mind with them on all issues? Think of somebody you like very much and agree with very much; isn't there a single important issue on which you disagree with them? To me, Rice's record indicates subservience. Also, very intelligent people tend to have strong independent opinions and never goose-march. If she is as smart as you say, how come?

Also, when she was being examined for SoS, she was expected to answer honestly to the best of her abilities, not play games as you suggest. By your logic, every time Bush behaves like a village idiot, he just does so to trick AQ into a false sense of security

I do not know why you hate Powel, but this thing about wife-beating I hear for the first time. Also, even if true, in what way does it prevent him from being effective in government office? Clinton was a cheater, yet virtually everybody agrees he was very competent as president. Probably if you dig in the back closet of every celebrity, you would find a skeleton or two. We cannot expect saints, but we demand competence! Let's not go into cheap personal shots, or I will have to bring up Dubya's "war" record, alcoholism, and DUI conviction. With all those, he might still have made a great president, but did not. So, let's keep it relevant.

Finally, on Sudan. It is absolute madness to believe that the US has the capacity to right every wrong and shine everywhere. Even the Sun shines on only half the Earth at a time. Making meaningless speeches of condemnation is the job of the UN impotents, rather than of USSoS. If the US have something to say, we should back it up. But, then soldiers will die just like in Somalia, and that is politically unacceptable. Besides, does anyone here even imagine we can police the entire world?? If there is imperialist grandomania, then that's it.

What has been US foreign policy anyway?

Scenario 1
US: You bad bad person.
Perp: I am very sorry. I'll see what I can do. Please give me money to reform.
US: Here!
Perp: Thank you kindly. (goes buys weapons, kills a bunch, puts the rest of the money in Swiss accounts)
US: You bad bad person.
(iterate)

Scenario 2
US: You bad bad person.
Perp: Yeah, whatever, you are not gonna send any troops.
US: argh... (bites tongue)

Scenario 3
US: You bad bad person.
Perp: Blah, blah, f*** you, you don't scare me.
US: (sends troops, 100 marines die, 1000 gangmen die, US appaulled, troops pull out, nothing changes in the country)
Perp: Hahaha, with my population, that's a pretty good kill rate. Neener, neener, neener Ready for some more? Didn't think so

That's just a circus of impotence that damages our credibility. Teddy Roosevelt said: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". What we have been doing is bark at the top of our lungs and wave a feather... If we are not willing to swing the club, we should be careful what we do, if we want to be taken seriously.

No person in the right mind would support rapes. But, there is nothing I can see that can be done in practical terms. Africa is a big huge mess, so let Africans sort it out. Growth is painful. Remember that the winners of WWI created all these countries in south-east Europe with no regard for national limits, trapping and "appeasing" people that hated each other and did not want to live together. What was the result? 80 years of violence that is still not completely resolved!

 

[4v50 Gary]

While rape is wrong, it's not for the US to try to solve another nation's crime problem. We can't stop rape here in our own country yet alone try to discourage it elsewhere.

 

[Kurush]

While rape is wrong, it's not for the US to try to solve another nation's crime problem. We can't stop rape here in our own country yet alone try to discourage it elsewhere.

This is not about a serial rapist, or a high rape rate, this is about government-backed militants attacking villages, massacring the men and systematically raping the women. Somewhere between 50,000 and 300,000 people have been murdered and nearly two million are refugees. Do you guys (who are advocating non-intervention) think the world had a responsibility to intervene when Germany was gassing Jews and other minorities? Were the UN troops doing the right thing in withdrawing when the Serbian army sacked Srebrenica and massacred 8000 Bosnian civilians?

 

[CAnnoneer]

Kurush,

I understand your outrage, but we do not live in an ideal world. We have to watch our six and use our limited resources as best we can. Our primary responsibility is before ourselves and our country, not other peoples or countries. We should strive to do what is practically achievable rather than flagellate ourselves for the general meanness of the world.

As far as Hitler goes, Britain had to fight to the death and America had to step in because the guy could not be trusted after breaking his own promises from Munich 1938, so a diplomatic solution was impossible, leaving unconditional capitulation as the only possible outcome. The dilemma was to stop him while still possible, or let him gulp Russia and spin out of control. The treatment of minorities was the very last on the list of priorities in practical terms and ever has been.

Ask your own mother if she would have been willing to send you to possible death or mutilation, so that you prevent, say, a Nazi from shooting a gypsy 4000 miles away across the ocean. Chances are she would have given you a good spanking, then given you 25 cents for a lollypop. Mothers know best.

 

[DRZinn]

Please provide a single example in which she has disagreed with the official line (Dubya/Karl/Dick) and has voiced that disagreement.

Her job is not to inject her opinion into anything. Her job is to carry out foreign policy as directed by the President. The only person who should ever hear any objection from the Secretary of State is the President himself.

That's not subservience, it's competence.

I do not know why you hate Powel, but this thing about wife-beating I hear for the first time.

Imagine, if you will, the question as posed: "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Imagine the possible answers.

Clinton was a cheater, yet virtually everybody agrees he was very competent as president.

 

[Kurush]

I understand your outrage, but we do not live in an ideal world. We have to watch our six and use our limited resources as best we can. Our primary responsibility is before ourselves and our country, not other peoples or countries. We should strive to do what is practically achievable rather than flagellate ourselves for the general meanness of the world.

Give me a break. This isn't a question of straining our limited resources, we are doing virtually nothing. The comment about flagellation is a nonsensical strawman, I am obviously not suggesting we make penance but rather that we do something.

Ask your own mother if she would have been willing to send you to possible death or mutilation, so that you prevent, say, a Nazi from shooting a gypsy 4000 miles away across the ocean. Chances are she would have given you a good spanking, then given you 25 cents for a lollypop. Mothers know best.

Is this supposed to be condescending? You should be spending your efforts trying to make a more rhetorically sound argument rather than insulting me or my mother.

 

[jefnvk]

If I had the means, I would airlift several thousand AK47's and Makarovs, along with several millions rounds of ammuntion, and drop them on sudanese villages. That ought to stop this rape/genocide crap.

The problem I have with that, is that we can't get the food shipments to the people that need them. I'd like to get them defense, but I don't think that airdropping them in is the right answer. Its just as likely that the local militia will get control of them, as the villagers. Maybe finding local contact to smuggle them in or something.

 

[Don Gwinn]

I do not know why you hate Powel, but this thing about wife-beating I hear for the first time. Also, even if true, in what way does it prevent him from being effective in government office? Clinton was a cheater, yet virtually everybody agrees he was very competent as president. Probably if you dig in the back closet of every celebrity, you would find a skeleton or two. We cannot expect saints, but we demand competence! Let's not go into cheap personal shots, or I will have to bring up Dubya's "war" record, alcoholism, and DUI conviction. With all those, he might still have made a great president, but did not. So, let's keep it relevant.

Uh. . . . . yeah. Not familiar with common illustrations of fallacies, then, are we?

You see, one of the most common fallacies employed in debate is called "Begging the Question." This means that you ask a question which implies its own answer. The most common illustration used to teach this fallacy to children is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

When asked that question, the victim is expected to say either that he has stopped beating his wife or he hasn't.

If he has, then he must have been beating his wife at some time in the past, no?

And yet if he hasn't stopped, then he must still beat his wife?

You notice that there's no quick and simple answer that expresses the idea "No, I never have beaten my wife and never will, you poopyhead!"


These are the games Senators play with their friends. With political opponents, it gets a LOT more complicated in a hurry.

 

[LAR-15]

Who cares what she says.

It's all diplomatic doublespeak.

 

[CAnnoneer]

QUOTE: Is this supposed to be condescending? You should be spending your efforts trying to make a more rhetorically sound argument rather than insulting me or my mother.

I mean no disrespect to your mother. Quite the opposite, I maintain that any sound parent would not take such risks. If you are a parent yourself, answer me if you would be willing to do the same. A moral highground stand always looks much better in hypothetical arguments, but pragmatism generally prevails in real life.

 

[yucaipa]

Ask your own mother if she would have been willing to send you to possible death or mutilation, so that you prevent, say, a Nazi from shooting a gypsy 4000 miles away across the ocean.

That's exactly what millions of them did in 1941-45, they were brave and upright people. Even most of the mother's of today will tell you that rape and murder are wrong.

Unlike this thread were some people are trying make the argument that the Secretary of State shouldn't publicly "stand up" and "speak out" that rape and murder are wrong because,

1 It's not our business.

2 We might offend someone.

 

[CAnnoneer]

Yucaipa,

I never doubted the troops' uprightness or bravery and none of that can be found in any of my posts. But, I do not think the stated reason of saving a gypsy in Germany was why the GI's would go die on the beaches of Normandy, at least not the main reason. If you watch "Why We Fight" or any of the propaganda movies in that period, Nazi atrocities are mentioned, but the main emphasis is on their unbridled militarism, untrustworthiness, and open desire to take over the world and rule it with an iron fist in a master-slave relationship. That was the primary motivator, along with "let's clean this mess and go home". That attitude also pervades all GI memoirs I have read.

I agree that mothers would tell you rape is wrong. But, the real question was if they would risk their children's lives to stop it in lands far far away. I think that the preponderant answer would be "no".

Finally, I do not believe I am less brave just because I argue for a more pragmatic approach.

 

[yucaipa]

Cannoneer,

Secretary Rice did not suggest that we invade/attack Sudan, she was using her position to (again) "speak out " again something that is wrong.

If you read the 2 pages of this thread it's disgusting how "some" posters are trying make the argument that, she did something wrong,who cares,it's not our business, That's my point.

Speaking for me I think it is our business, and I don't care if any one is offended.

Secretary Rice did the right thing.

Any American with their head on half straight would know that and be proud of it.

 

[rick_reno]

She should have suggested hiring some nuns to hit the rapists knuckles with a ruler - that'd stop them!
Seriously, is this the BEST plan that she can come up with?

 

[LAR-15]

I'm sure she'd like to para drop M-16s into Darfur BUT the UN and the African Union would ???? a brick.

Kofi Annan would be very displeased ya know.

 

[Art Eatman]

What's the quote? Something about, "All that's needed for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing."

Helluva note when somehow it's wrong to speak out against governmental misdeeds against the citizenry or neighbors.

Probably shouldn't speak out against bank robbers or child molesters. It'd hurt their feelings, meddling in their bidness.

Hey, if ya get involved in trying to influence against malbehavior, it might cut into hangin' time at the mall!

, Art