Rifle choice for driven hunts?

[hq]

I just got back from Hungary, where we had an extended weekend of driven wild boar, fallow deer and red deer hunt. The result wasn't bad at all, I shot six hogs and two nice fallow deer, but also missed a number of opportunities I would have liked to have at least a shot at.

The problem was the combination of rifle and hunter. I'm not very competent with reloading a bolt action rifle quickly. I hunted with my Weatherby Mark V in .375H&H, which is a magnum action rifle hence the bolt draw is very long. On top of that, it's heavy, and I forgot my shooting sticks at home, which didn't help at all. I originally thought about taking my Marlin XLR with me; lever action is very quick to operate and while 200yd+ is still possible, the slow speed of .45-70 makes it a bit tricky when you're shooting animals fleeing at full speed. And that's what 95% of driven hunt shots are all about.

Some of my friends hunt with a double rifle, usually in rimmed 9.3x74, which is pretty much ideal for this kind of hunts as long as you don't need more than two (or four, by keeping spare cartridges between your fingers) shots. I'd be more comfortable with four or five without having to reload, especially when a 400lb+ hog is coming at you, full charge.

I have an ongoing project, a Winchester 1895, that'll be rechambered, most likely to 9.3x62. It'll get custom peep sight and provisions to mount a Bushnell Holosight or EOTech and it still has its (russian contract) stripper clip guides, which can be adapted for Garand clips for use with 9.3x62 cartridges. However, it'll probably take another year to complete so it won't be available for next 3-4 trips we have been planning.

So, meanwhile I'd like to get myself a new rifle. Semiautos are unfortunately out of the question, they're banned in many of the countries I hunt in and I already have quite a few of them. That limits my choice to lever action or pump action. Preferred caliber would be .308 or larger; something that can stop a large hog on its tracks with a reasonable shot placement when need be. I'd like the rifle to be able to shoot up to 250 yards with sufficient (1.5MOA) accuracy and have no problems mounting optics. I can't say how much it can cost, but spending more than $1000 or on a "spare" gun doesn't sound too tempting.

Any ideas? Other than practising to operate a bolt action rifle quicker, that is...

 

[huntershooter]

Since you're familiar with a lever action; you might look at a Model 71 Winchester in .348 Winchester.
It is a reloaders cartridge. A 250 gr. bullet can be driven to 2400 FPS+-.
I have an original (steel) Williams receiver sight on mine that is extremely quick to acquire with aperture removed and is accurate enough for medium sized, running game.
The reproduction rifles are manufactured by Miroku and are of good quality-without the tang safety.

L to R below:

.450 Alaskan, .348 Winchester, .308 for comparison.

 

[hdbiker]

we drive hunt all the time.my Rem 742 carbine in .308 Win., with a couple extra mags works great . hdbiker

 

[hq]

Since you're familiar with a lever action; you might look at a Model 71 Winchester in .348 Winchester.
It is a reloaders cartridge. A 250 gr. bullet can be driven to 2400 FPS+-

Thanks! Otherwise that'd be pretty close to ideal, but most airlines accept only factory ammo in original packaging. That's one of the reasons I couldn't take the XLR - I was out of .45-70 factory ammo, couldn't get any on a short notice and was flat out told by the airline that handloads are out of the question.

 

[jmr40]

If you want to get off quick accurate shots get a pump, or learn how to work a bolt rifle since semi's are off the table. Anyone can unload a magazine in a hurry with a lever, pump or semi auto, but if you actually slow down enough to hit what you are aiming at there is darn little difference between any of them including bolt rifles. As you have already noticed, the greater the recoil, the slower it is because it takes longer to recover from the recoil and get the sights back on target than it does to cycle the actions on any of them.

I actually spend quite a bit of practice time trying to hit paper plates @ 50 yards as fast as possible with all of my guns. I can get off 3 un aimed shots faster with a pump, semi, or lever faster than with a bolt rifle, and I'm under 2 seconds with a bolt gun. But when I add the requirement that all 3 shots MUST hit the target only the semi is faster. The other 3 are within a few 10ths of a second of each other for 3 shots. Right at 4 seconds, +/- about .2 seconds.

I've owned them all and found the best solution was to just learn how to run a bolt rifle fast and use it for everything.

 

[hq]

I've owned them all and found the best solution was to just learn how to run a bolt rifle fast and use it for everything.

Otherwise that might be an option, but the magnum bolt is excessively long, reaching out all the way to cheek pad when it's open, hence requiring me to break the cheek weld. With a shorter action it might work, but having only a handful of bolt guns I'm not really interested.

With a lever action (and a pump shotgun) I'm somewhat competent and at least 2-3 times faster than with a bolt, counting only accurate, aimed shots, of course, and not just spraying bullets in the general direction of game animals.

 

[eastbank]

i would get a pump remington 7600 in 35 whelen, 200gr bullet at 2600fps or a 250gr bullet at 2500fps and stick a 2x7 leupold scope on it. eastbank.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I have always found a lever action to be much quicker getting in action and on game than anything else. You might try a Browning blr.

 

[courtgreene]

Can't you just put your hand loads into a factory load's box? Wouldn't that solve all your problems, allowing you to take what you want to take but until trying this couldn't take on an airplane? Am I under thinking this?

 

[buck460XVR]

i would get a pump remington 7600 in 35 whelen, 200gr bullet at 2600fps or a 250gr bullet at 2500fps and stick a 2x7 leupold scope on it. eastbank.

I agree with the 7600 recommendation even tho I own half a dozen levers. It is still easier to stay on game between shots with a pump as compared to a lever, for most folks. Depending on ammo availability there either .308 or 30-06 would do anything you ask of it, both for the game mentioned and any others you may hunt in the future.

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/pump-action-model-7600.aspx

 

[TIMC]

Have you tried Sauer or Blaser? They make some very nice short throw bolt guns that are effortless to cycle.

I have one of the Sauer 202 Forest rifles which is considered a nice running game gun for driven hunts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47iSSX-gCMU

 

[oneounceload]

A Browning BLR in 30-06 should handle anything you'd run into.

 

[Scrumbag]

Seems to me you can do the following:

Bolt Action: I'd go for something like a 9.3x62. Superb boar round and what I use for preference when I head over to France to hunt

Lever: BLR in .30-06 or 358W (With 20" this is a fast handling package shooting a heavy bullet which is good for stopping running game)

Pump - No idea on this really I'm afraid

Straight Pull: Much as I don't like 'em, Blasers are well built

Optics: Get a 1.5-6x42 or a 1-5x36 with an illuminated reticule

ATB,

Scrummy

 

[RPRNY]

Airlines are not concerned with nor do they or TSA have means of checking whether ammo is reloaded or factory. They are concerned with packaging. I have traveled without event with hand loads in both factory cardboard boxes and hard plastic aftermarket boxes.

I wouldn't have thought the 45-70 ideal for driven boar. .308 seems quite suitable but may be a problem in some European jurisdictions like France where "military calibers" are prohibited. This does not seem to be an issue in Central Europe.

If you prefer a lever action, a Savage 99 in .308 would be my recommendation. Skinner or Williams large aperture peeps would work well.

The Blaser R8 in .308 would seem ideal for your needs and with a little practice will deliver very rapid loading.

 

[hq]

A big thank you for everybody for ideas and suggestions.

Browning BLR isn't cheap, Krieghoff Semprio pump rifle is way out of my budget and while Blaser R8 is nice, it's both expensive and not really my cup of tea; in essence bolt action ergonomics except for just pulling the bolt handle instead of lifting it first. But... I had forgotten about Remington 7600, which seems almost ideal. So much so that I actually checked that a couple of local gun stores have it in .308 in stock and at €800 ($1100 or so) it may just fit the bill. .35Whelen is pretty much nonexistent as a caliber around here, the closest common equivalent being 9.3x62. On the other hand, .308 with good bullets should suffice nicely for wild boar, red deer and the like; not exactly the sledgehammer .45-70 or .375H&H is, but plenty to kill - and more importantly, stop - most anything in Europe.

I know that it's almost impossible for the airlines to check whether your ammo is factory or handloads, but I don't want to take even a small chance that someone notices something and gives me trouble. It's a long drive from southern Europe back to Finland after you get on air travel blacklist and I don't even want to think about how I'll be able to get back home if something like that happens in Africa. TSA has removed the requirement for original box from their regulations, but some airline officials still refer to outdated ones and go to great lengths in enforcing them. I have some very bad experiences, especially at Madrid airport, and I want to avoid all situations where an airline employee thinks he (or in my case, she) "knows" something. Things like that tend to take months to straighten out, which is a problem when your flight leaves in a couple of hours.

 

[Jim Watson]

I really want to see an 1895 converted from 7.62 Russ to 9.3x62 with Garand clips.
I want to see the gunsmith bill for the work, too; vs the price of a Blaser or Sauer.

I would get that pump in .30-06. The pump stroke is the same and I suspect there is a wider selection of factory ammunition with premium bullets.

In the last days of ISU Running Deer, the AMU developed a target version of the 760 to give them an edge over the bolt guns. True, it was a .222 with 28" barrel and Redfield International sights, but it was still the basic Remington pump action. But then Walter Winans did well with a .22 Savage High Power Rigby double, too.

 

[Vincent Price]

sounds like the Rem 7600 really is the rifle for your budget. 308 is also a good choice imho. You need the right bullet of course.

There are a lot of rifles that are more or less designed for fast reloading on driven hunts. Blaser R8, Merkel Helix, Heym SR30, Browning Maral but they are all quite a bit more expensive.

It is true however that it is pretty much a question of practise how fast you can get with a bolt action.
I'm not sure I would want to buy a cheap gun just for faster reloading instead of practising some more and then using the bolt action I am familiar with on driven hunts.

 

[Scrumbag]

"... I wouldn't have thought the 45-70 ideal for driven boar. .308 seems quite suitable but may be a problem in some European jurisdictions like France where "military calibers" are prohibited. This does not seem to be an issue in Central Europe..."

Actually France has greatly reduced its restrictions on military calibres(new legislation in September 2013).

It is now fine to shoot most of the military calibres, the only exceptions being

.223 Rem / 5.56 Nato, 5.45/7.62x39, 50 BMG and the 12.7x114 Russia equivalent (Think that is the right designation).

ATB,

Scrummy

 

[hq]

I really want to see an 1895 converted from 7.62 Russ to 9.3x62 with Garand clips.
I want to see the gunsmith bill for the work, too; vs the price of a Blaser or Sauer.

I would get that pump in .30-06. The pump stroke is the same and I suspect there is a wider selection of factory ammunition with premium bullets.

I'm sorry, I should've been a bit more specific. The 1895 is an independent project, a modernized "medicine gun" I've wanted to build for years, ever since a russian contract gun fell in my hands for less than $200. While the finish on receiver is original and mint, collector value has been ruined by a previous owner who has rebarreled it to now-obsolete 7x53R and modified the stock with a hacksaw. After everything is said and done I've reckoned it'll be a $3k+ gun (a bit less if I rebarrel back to 7.62x54R instead), which effectively prevents me from buying another expensive rifle for driven hunts.

A pump/lever "beater" gun is a temporary solution. It also serves a long term purpose, because my son is about to turn 18 in a few weeks and sooner or later he might be invited to hunts like these; he's left handed so the gun that's going to be handed to him has to be as ambidexterous as possible.

As far as caliber is concerned, no-one around here seems to have .30-06 7600 in stock. Giving up a few fps and lbs-ft by stepping down to .308 isn't ideal but local Lapua (Lock Base, Mega, Naturalis) and Sako (Arrowhead, Hammerhead, Gamehead) factory loads are widely available with different bullet weights, not to mention offerings from the likes of RWS, Norma, S&B etc. .308 is by far the most popular hunting caliber in Finland so virtually anything that's available in .30-06 can be had in .308 as well. As a plus, I have other rifles in .308 so I already have plenty of factory ammo for it.

 

[hq]

[...]with Garand clips.

Oops. Springfield 1903 clips, more likely. Or other common clips for non-rimmed, approximately 9.3 base diameter cartridges.

 

[Sav .250]

That`s a lot of cal for that type of game. IMO.

Most yagers in Germany used a 12 ga shotgun for boar. The Roe deer are not big at all.
The others you mention don`t require a large cal for a clean kill.

I`ve taken all while stationed in Germany many years ago. A 30-06 on boar. The others a Sav 99 in 250/3000 cal.

If that`s all you had ,I understand. There are levers available that will take all mentioned.

Here`s a thought. Maybe a 35 Remington (lever) shooting Hornady rounds. Will handle the type of game you.

Continued good luck on your adventures.

 

[eastbank]

my to go rifle here in pa. is a remington 7600 carbine in 30-06 with a 2x7 leupold scope and with 55grs imr 4350 and 165gr nosler ballistic tip bullets will hold 3 shot groups at 2.5-3.0 inches at 200yds from a rest.the rifle is fairly light and realy handy with lighting fast follow up shots if needed or more than one animal. as you can see the remington is the same size as a 1894 winchester carbine in 30 wcf. there is a running animal shooting course at a club i use for pratice on shooting at running deer-bear ect and the pumps rule the course if more than one shot is needed. what ever you decide on getting, pratice,be safe and enjoy your hunts. eastbank.

 

[hq]

That`s a lot of cal for that type of game. IMO.

Most yagers in Germany used a 12 ga shotgun for boar. The Roe deer are not big at all.
The others you mention don`t require a large cal for a clean kill.

I`ve taken all while stationed in Germany many years ago. A 30-06 on boar. The others a Sav 99 in 250/3000 cal.

If that`s all you had ,I understand. There are levers available that will take all mentioned.

Here`s a thought. Maybe a 35 Remington (lever) shooting Hornady rounds. Will handle the type of game you.

Continued good luck on your adventures.

Thanks!

However...

Roe deer aren't big, averaging at 50lbs, but a red deer stag can weigh in excess of 500lbs - twice the size of large whitetail bucks - and their vitals are exceptionally well protected from smaller caliber bullets with insufficient penetration. They're tough as nails, hard to kill and you can easily be undergunned if you use rapidly expanding bullets. The largest wild boars shot in that particular area have weighed in excess of 600lbs and 250-300lbs is more or less the norm for a mature boar. The drivers lost four dogs to boars and had about half a dozen more wounded during two days, so I rather play it safe, especially when I'm not in an elevated stand.

I consider 180gr Lapua Mega in .308 as the baseline for a round capable of taking any of the above with a sufficient safety margin. Being able to put 4-5 of those in a charging boar in rapid succession makes me feel even safer.

 

[Jim Watson]

Oops. Springfield 1903 clips, more likely. Or other common clips for non-rimmed, approximately 9.3 base diameter cartridges.

I figured that was what you meant, but it wasn't what you said. I seldom post load data or trust what I see posted because it is so easy to stumble on the keyboard and blast it off into cyberspace without checking.

It sounds like you have arrived at a .308 pump by a process of elimination. The fastest manually operated action and a caliber you can get.

 

[hq]

It sounds like you have arrived at a .308 pump by a process of elimination. The fastest manually operated action and a caliber you can get.

You're right about that, and this has been one of the quickest rifle choices I've ever made (thanks, THR!)

However, I just realized that Lumley Arms manufactures barrel brackets for 7600-series rifles, meaning that one can easily be converted to a switch-barrel rifle. Choosing the .30-06 model instead of .308 means that I could have a 9.3x62 barrel headspaced to a spare barrel bracket and switch caliber in matter of minutes. 1+4 9.3:s in a pump gun sounds awfully tempting and 1+10 with an aftermarket high-cap magazine is almost too good.

Decisions, decisions... Walnut stock .30-06 isn't available locally, but canadian export paperwork shouldn't be too bad (compared to the US) and they seem to sell for around CDN800 (€540!), which leaves quite a bit of room for shipping, customs and taxes.