Rifle Course: Beyond the basics - What would you want?

[Matthew Courtney]

I am an NRA training counselor with Louisiana Shooters Unlimited. We have just finished beta testing our defensive carbine course. Next, we want to design an intermediate skill level course to get rifle shooters accurately out past 200 yards in realistic field conditions. What would you guys like to see covered in such a course?

 

[taliv]

"defensive carbine" and "out past 200 yards" don't go together very often

but if i were doing an intermediate skill course, i would prob focus on a lot of movement, barricade work, more movement, transitions, and more movement. and shooting while moving, and shooting moving targets, and shooting moving targets while moving, and some more movement.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

"defensive carbine" and "out past 200 yards" don't go together very often

but if i were doing an intermediate skill course, i would prob focus on a lot of movement, barricade work, more movement, transitions, and more movement. and shooting while moving, and shooting moving targets, and shooting moving targets while moving, and some more movement.

And we are not trying to put defensive carbine and shooting out past 200 yards together now. The defensive carbine course has been designed, reviewed, tested, and beta tested.
it is a close range/intermediate skills course with no barricade work at all. Cover in real life is 3 dimensional, so is cover in our course. We have no drills where participants shoot before they start moving, because civilians don't usually have body armor on. Everything is geared toward civilian defensive carbine use.

We are now designing an intermediate range/intermediate skills course and trying to assess shooter needs and interests. We would like to know what level of interest there is in better riflery for big game applications, better riflery for varmit applications, and/or DM type riflery skills.

Advanced courses will follow, but we are trying to break the mold of just putting citizens through military style training and pretending we are doing anything particularly useful. I mean, seriously, who is wearing a chest rig when a gang tries to rob their pawn shop or jewelery store?

 

[henschman]

For shooting at distance, the three things you have to do are 1) target identification, 2) range estimation, and 3) taking the shot.

On the shooting range, usually 1 and 2 are pretty easy, since the targets are easily identifiable and are usually at a known distance. The main thing you are concentrating on is number 3.

In real life, it is the opposite. Target ID is the hardest job... especially when the target doesn't want to be seen (like a deer or a dude). That is why most shots are under 150m in the real world. Range estimation is the next hardest, especially when you only have a few seconds to take the shot. Actually taking the shot is the easiest.

So if you want to teach students to shoot at distance under realistic conditions, there should be a lot of emphasis on target ID. You should also work on range estimation with them, as well as reading the wind. You should probably have them figure out their hold offs for different distances and wind conditions (since you usually don't have time to fiddle with your sights when taking a shot in the field). Some rules of thumb on edge-of-zone holds for different conditions might be useful.

You will also have to teach them some more precision-oriented positions than what you teach for close quarters shooting. You should teach them some of the different methods of getting stable in the field for precise shooting (unsupported, solid support, monopodding, sling, bipod, etc.), and their pluses and minuses.

I also agree that moving targets are a big part of real-world distance shooting. Even if you don't have the facilities to actually fire on moving targets, the techniques should still be taught.

 

[Ramone]

Sniper Training!

Get a buddy, preferably that guy that gets on your nerves after a while, load up with 3 rifles and all your gear, and about 250 lbs of stuff. Pack along a few Oscar Meyer Lunchables.

Get on a bus, and ride it 12 miles out of town. Get off, and hide in the ditch till dark. walk back into town, hiding in the ditch every time a car passes.

If you don't make it to the range before sunup, hide in a dumpster the next day till dark.

when you get within 2000 yards of the range, crawl the rest of the way. If you have to pee, do it right where you are lying. Get to the line, and build a pillow fort. Hide in it with your buddy all the next day and night. Argue over who gets to take the shot, who's the better shot, the range to target, the wind speed and direction, and who ate the last lunchable.

Next morning, have your buddy call your girlfriend, and ask if you can take the shot. she'll tell you to call back a few times, then tell you no. pack up all your stuff (including your feces) and crawl all the way home.

 

[taliv]

ramone, i forget who wrote that originally, but it's pretty funny

 

[mortablunt]

First thing: Friend, Enemy, or Neutral. Before anyone shoots, they should be instructed in differentiating between friends, enemies, and bystanders. As range increases, this gets tougher. Is that guy 20M away pulling a cell phone out of his pocket or is he pulling a gun?

Second stage: calculating range.

Third stage: Hitting targets at unspecified and different ranges.

Fourth stage: Dealing with wind, rain, visibility, dynamic targets, and negotiating cover.

 

[Ramone]

I did, actually. Thought it was worth a replay ;-)

Seriously, I'd want to see how to record and use dope, Ranging methods, reading wind, shooting positions/ support, and trigger control.

 

[SwissArmyDad]

what do these classes tend to run, costwise, to attend? (understanding that it varies, region to region) Is there a standard that the NRA sets forth?

I haven't seen anything locally that would let me get some training on my 9mm and AR to take my ability up a notch as far as clearance drills, etc.

Thanks in advance

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Henchman,

Lots of great thoughts and ideas. We can do dynamic training out to 300 yards and static stuff out to 600. The target ID idea is great.

Ramone,

Too funny! If I had a dollar for every SOF and/or sniper wanna be who called me and then got insulted because I wanted to start him off by teaching/verifying basic skills, I could build that 1500 yard range.

Swiss Army Dad,

Basic courses like NRA Basic Rifle or a standard CHL course where a 8:1 student/instructor ratio is typical tend to run $100-150 per day.

Intermediate courses like the NRA Personal Protection Outside the Home where a 4:1 student/instructor ratio is more common tend to run $150-$200 per day.

Advanced course prices are all over the place depending on the reputation of the trainer. the NRA does not regulate the prices instructors charge in any way. We may teach courses for any lawful purpose and charge whatever fees that the market will bear.

Where are you located? I may be able to put you in touch with an instructor in your area. If there are no active instructors in your area, you can come take a few courses with us and become an Instructor so that you may provide the services your community currently lacks. We currently have some on our calander for 375-400 for a 2 day week-end and $550 for a 3 day week-end and those prices include housing in a nice air conditioned cabin or lodge with a full bathroom and kitchen, wifi, bigscreen, ect.

 

[henschman]

I suppose along with target identification, it might be helpful to teach some techniques for engaging targets when they CAN'T be pinpointed, but you know they're out there.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

I suppose along with target identification, it might be helpful to teach some techniques for engaging targets when they CAN'T be pinpointed, but you know they're out there.

That's more of a basic skill taught in a hunter improvement clinic, unless you mean human targets. With respect to private citizens seeking to engage human targets, ethical behavior standards dictate that when a deadly force engagement can be safely avoided, it should be avoided.

Defending a barricade position when surrounded by assailants who have effective concealment is covered in our defensive carbine course. Team tactics for forcing targets into the open will probably be in the advanced defensive carbine course. Do you mean moving to flank an adversaryin a manner which reduces his ability to effectively use cover and/or concealment? Or something else?

We try not to just "teach" anything. We try to train everything we do with at least 5 reps through every skill drill; many more on the simple physical skill drills. That limits how much we can cover in a 2 day course. Training folks how to flank adversaries who are over 200 yards away has value, because it relates to providing one's own rearguard while moving to a safer position. I think that it will have a place in our advanced level, intermediate distance course.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Overall Plan

Let me clarify how development of this intermediate distance/intermediate skill level course fits into our overall course development plan. We noticed that many, if not most, of the intermediate and advanced level rifle courses available to civilians are simply repackaged military and police training. In and of itself, that is not a bad thing. Interested shooters should be able to take a wide variety of training courses.

What we believe is lacking are courses designed from the ground up as civilian defender training and/or beyond basic level riflery for sporting applications. The biggest difference from LEO/Military training is that the civilian defender will nearly always begin an encounter in a vulnerable position, without back up, and no rifle in his hands. After all, predators who chose prey who are in good defensible positions and have rifles at the ready do not enjoy long careers as predators. Private citizens also have more narrowly defined objectives in that LEO and military must capture, confound, or destroy the adversary while citizens need only survive. Hunters will have difficult range/wind/improvised field position issues to work through without the luxury of a spotter.

We ended up with the following paradigm with three rifle course series to be developed:

Short Range(contact distance to 200 yards)

Basic Defensive Carbine
Intermediate Defensive Carbine
Advanced Defensive Carbine

Intermediate Range(200-600 yards)

Basic Rifle
Intermediate Rifle
Advanced Rifle

Long Range(600-1500 yards)
Basics of high magnification(over 9 x)optics and range estimation
Intermediate Precision Rifle
Advanced Precision Rifle

We are hoping that each course can be done in 2 days and that each course series can be done in a week.

 

[taliv]

i think the course description would benefit from clear delineation between skills and tactics and you're discussing both in both contexts. it sounds like from the posts above you're still planning to teach military tactics (e.g. "flanking") to civilians, despite how you started out in the original post, so maybe I'm just confused.


basic skills (weapon manipulation, moving and shooting, positional shooting, target ID, range estimation, wind reading, spotting, etc) are the same for mil, leo or civilians, whether defending, hunting or competing or whatever. it's just basic mechanics and math (well, there's some advanced math in there too)

tactics (team work, your 'vulnerable position', getting to your rifle, stage planning in competitions, "forcing targets into the open" , flanking, and similar things you mentioned) vary greatly from civilian to leo to mil, and obviously from defense to hunting to competitions.


hopefully that helps. I mean, your 600 yrd dope and 10mph wind call don't change if you switch roles from leo to civilian, or if you're shooting a moose at 600 or a 6" steel plate at 600. your tactics might though. proper position and technique won't change, but your liability might.

speaking of liability, i have a good bit of instructor liability insurance for the competition oriented classes PMG conducts, but if I were teaching classes to civilians on flanking adversaries more than 200 yards away, i'd want a lot more of it!

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Taliv,

You mentioned shooter movement 6 times in your first post in this thread. Every defenders movement should put him in a position where he is harder to hit while moving toward a position from which his attacker is easier to hit. In addition to making himself less vulnerable when moving, the defender should also be doing one of two things : 1 - drawing the attacker into the open, 2 - flanking his attacker.

Flanking is not just a military tactic. It's a boxing tactic, a football tactic, and a dogfighting tactic. It is also a personal defense tactic. The differences between military flanking and personal defense flanking are manifold.

Flanking an adversary who is >200 yds away is something we may put in one of the most advanced course in a nine course milieu. We are working with over a dozen instructors and RSO's to develop teaching techniques and strategies for everything we consider. If we are not sure that we can train something safely, we won't train it. Yet still, we have millions in Liability Insurance.

Thank-you for mentioning course stages, as we had not even considered that people may want rifle training that helps them do better in competition. The only sporting application we considered is hunting. As none of my guys do 3 gun, can you identify some skills valuable in 3 gun that we could include for clients who compete?

Lastly, we cannot clearly delineate anything in a course description which is intended to describe a course/courses that we have yet to identify objectives for. Right now we have only concepts and loose parameters identified for most of the courses. Once we clearly identify the course objectives we can break it down into mindset, skills, tactics, study, and drills.

 

[taliv]

Ok


Btw there's a big difference in liability and instructor liability. You typically need a separate policy for instructors as general shooting liability insurance policies don't cover instructors or do so at with a very low cap.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

Taliv,

I guess you missed the part where I said that I train NRA Instructors. Part of doing that is explaining the ins and outs of insurance coverage. I have the Instructor Plus Liability Policy with Lockton Risk and so do all of the instructors I work with.