Rifle Raffle

[The Sarge]

Stopped by my Valero Quick Stop (Like a 7-11) this morning for my coffee and they have a sign up ..
"$20 for a ticket/chance to win a new Ruger .22"
Then below it they have a picture of a AR type looking rifle.....
I ask the cashier what would they do if a 12 year old won it...and he said the owner tells everybody it is a private sale....
I didnt say anything...but this sure sounds wrong to me.
A raffle is like selling the gun to the general public and one would require a FFL at the least....whoever won it would have to go through a NICS background I would also assume.....
The sign doesnt say anything about must be 18 or any restrictions at all.....
What do you folks think? This is in Texas for the record.

 

[Zoogster]

That would depend on what he does when it is won.

I ask the cashier what would they do if a 12 year old won it

The sign doesnt say anything about must be 18 or any restrictions at all.....

Well if he was a nice guy he would probably sell it to a parent. If not he could say the applicant was never eligible from the start and as a result is disqualified.
Which reminds me of a Casino. If a child on their way to a room in the hotel above the Casino floor drops a coin into a machine and wins, they will deny that child all the winnings (and will have it on camera.) The child was never qualified the play the game. If the child loses they will probably never take notice. So clearly the child is in a lose lose situation.

As it relates to being unable to take possession of a rifle I imagine the same situation could apply. If the winner is unable to legally take possession of the firearm, then they can simply be disqualified.



Now where I won't claim to understand the law as it varies greatly in every state and at the federal level is as the law pertains to gambling. Rather than any firearm related offenses gambling offenses may exist.
I know 'illegal lotteries' exist many places. It is a criminal offense to run them. People give a small amount of money or another 'consideration', and someone wins a good portion if it or a prize.
I fail to see a big difference between a "raffle" and an illegal lottery. They are legally the same thing in some states, and if they use the federal mail, go across state lines, etc they can be subject to federal regulations as well.

But I also know many companies and good people that put on the occasional fund raising "raffle" to win something for some cause or charity or other event. They are running an illegal "lottery" which is actually a serious offense many places.

 

[WNTFW]

I have sold gun raffle tickets for legitimate organizations. They didn't necessarily have the rules on the tickets or signs.

I can say raffles are regulated by local ordinances in my area. IIRC only a non-profit can raffle items.

FWIW - going rates
A $1.00 for a Garand ticket.
$20.00 for a 10 gun ticket. (like entering 10 individual raffles sort of)
All guns went throught FFL for transfers.

I'm with you in that something seems off.

 

[The Sarge]

Heck I dont know...it (the sign) doesn't say anything about who the benefactor of this raffle is...nothing....Just $20 bucks a ticket for this .22 rifle.....
I conceal carry and about as pro 2nd Amendment as a guy can get...but I sure do not understand the "legality" behind this.....

 

[Zoogster]

Here is part of what a California attorney wrote addressing sweepstakes and how they can be defined as illegal lotteries. (Every state has different exemptions, like the one listed above by WNTFW "IIRC only a non-profit can raffle items."

http://www.yourlegalcorner.com/article.asp?Cat=Internet Alert&ID=27

Legal Sweepstakes or Illegal Lottery

While sweepstakes promotions are generally permitted in most states, lotteries are not. Unlike lotteries, "sweepstakes" promotions do not require the participants to pay anything for the chance to win. Thus, a promotion that conditions the chance to win on subscribing for a service, purchasing a product or, in some states, visiting a physical store, may be deemed an illegal lottery.

A lottery consists of a prize, chance, and consideration (defined below). Lotteries are generally prohibited in each of the fifty states unless legislatively exempted (i.e., state run lotteries). Therefore, sweepstakes promotions must omit one of the three elements of a lottery (prize, chance, or consideration) to avoid being deemed an illegal lottery. Generally, a sweepstakes promotion will include a prize and chance but no consideration.

So what is consideration? The definition of consideration varies from state to state and whether a sweepstakes promotion will be found to include an element of consideration will depend on various factors, such as:

(1) how easy or difficult it is to participate in the sweepstakes and

(2) whether an alternative method of entry (e.g., entry by mail or fax) is present.

Examples of consideration include conditioning entry on the participants:

* purchase a product;
* monetary payment;
* visiting a store, or
* provision of detailed consumer information.

Running an illegal lottery can easily be a felony offense.

So requiring a payment for a chance to win something to raise money for the local school done by a local mom for example can be a felony.

Such things are often done, but crimes are being committed in many cases. (Without meeting one of your state exemptions, like first creating or doing it on behalf of a non-profit organization. Doing it just for yourself whether the prize is a gun or a candy bar is most likely illegal. The monetary gain and/or number of participants and thus violations probably is a mitigating factor in determining how serious a crime it is and what the penalties are.)

 

[cskny]

Was this gun raffle something being done to raise money for a charity or support some organization or was this like a gas station owner's hand-drawn flyer running his own "whatever"?

 

[The Sarge]

No, as I said, there is no benefactor listed at all.
The only reason I even post this....is I am sensitive to anti-gunners getting "ammunition" from well meaning pro-2nd's. What I mean is let some anti get a hold of this and watch them have at it on the 6 O'Clock news.....

 

[NavyLCDR]

He's in Texas, right? Another 18+ year old Texas resident, not a prohibited person in any other way, buys a Ruger .22 from another Texas resident... any problems with that? Nope. Perfectly legal.

Person puts an ad in a Texas newspaper to sell a .22 to the highest bidder...another Texas resident responds... any problems with that? Nope. Perfectly legal.

I don't see any difference.... Private sales are legal in Texas... so long as the rifle goes to a person who is legal to own it, I don't see any problems.

 

[vanagon40]

In 2004, the Texas Attorney General stated that raffles are illegal unless conducted by existing not-for-profit groups under specified conditions. The article is here => http://www.oag.state.tx.us/alerts/alerts_view_alpha.php?id=58&type=1

I post this for information only and not as a legal opinion regarding the laws in Texas.

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's leave the legality of the raffle out of this, okay? The subject is the winning ticket being held by a twelve-year-old. I presume in south Texas.

So: The legal way for the child to win is for the parent or legal guardian to turn in the ticket, take possession from the raffler, and head for home. The parent or legal guardian can then give the rifle to the child. (Odds are, the $20 came from a parent, to begin with. Twelve-year-olds generally don't have money-earning jobs.)