Rifle : Scope cost ratio for beginner

[muncherndn]

Kind and learned readers of The High Road,

I am going to start out in semi-long range (home range max 400m possible new range max 1000m). I have picked out a DMPS LRT-SASS .308 as my weapon system.

I am interested in what cost ratio is generally followed in rifle/scope configuration. I will pay around $1800 for the weapon and am looking at scopes around $400 - $600 range. I would rather keep the cost closer to the $400 if possible, but at that price point, am I wasting money? I would like to eventually move into a nicer scope. I also have a S&W 640 pro and a Dan Wesson Valor on my wish list - Hence my wanting to save where possible.

I am currently in Afghan. and will make it home just in time for the Mar/Apr Wanenmacher show in Tulsa. I plan on hitting things hard and fast while my lovely wife is still deliriously happy having me home. I have been considering the following scopes:

Hawke Sidewinder 4.5 - 14X42 - $419
Bushnell 5 - 15X40 - $449
Millett 6 - 25X56 - $419

All scopes are Mil-Dot

I would appreciate any insight/advice provided.

As an aside, I recently purchased a Dillon RL550B, which of the many manuals is best? Thanks again for the help

- Jesse

 

[madcratebuilder]

I would buy this Vortex Viper.

 

[taliv]

hey welcome to THR and stay safe over there

the vortex is a good scope.

go to www.samplelist.com and look at their whole list for demo and blemished scopes. i've purchased a couple there for much less than retail and been extremely happy.

 

[Tirod]

You sure you'll have enough time for a huge 48 hour gun show and a deliriously happy wife? (he said, in a gravelly Red Green voice.)

One of the marketing maven's mantras is to spend the same amount on the scope as the rifle. While some choke on that , the point is that a high quality and expensive scope generally has leading edge technology and a lot more time in labor to set it up right. They stay clearer longer and don't seem to "age" as much as less expensive scopes. There is a point to the "buy once cry once" philosophy.

In that regard, Leupold, Schmidt and Bender, Nightforce, and others are in that market. They get discussed a lot here: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php

I may not have done a favor with that link, it'll probably drag you in deeper.

 

[briansmithwins]

Putting $400 glass on a $1800 rifle is like buying a Dodge Viper then running Ching-Shin tires on it.

Pony up for some decent glass!

You're not going to have good times at long range with the bargain optics. You're not just paying for the name when you go S&B, Swarovski, or Zeiss, you're paying for better glass and the better coatings that really make a difference.

If you do get the $400 optic, I'll bet you'll get disappointed with it within a year and buy the good stuff anyway. Buy quality, once.

BSW

 

[jem375]

I think a lot of the scopes are over priced, Leupold is one of them, Nikon is just as good as Leupold. As far as reloading manuals, I use Hornady and Sierra the most because I use mostly their bullets for reloading.. glad you are coming back in one piece.... thank you for your service..

 

[Loosedhorse]

Why would a "beginner" want a cheaper scope than he'd select if he was a more seasoned shooter? So if, in case he decides to give up shooting, he didn't waste as much money?

You should buy enough scope to do what you need it to do. If that's taking long shots in dim light with a high-recoil round in a place and situation where a broken scope would be really, really bad, well, you might be well served to spend a lot more money then you'd choose for a .308 in daylight at a known 300m.

And if you decide to quit shooting, you'll find a good scope keeps resale value!

 

[springfield30-06]

I think a lot of the scopes are over priced, Leupold is one of them, Nikon is just as good as Leupold.

Although I also think that Nikon is just as good as Leupold, I prefer Leupold because of the lifetime warranty. I have had to use that warranty when my rifle/scope hit the ground when I slipped while climbing up a hill while hunting.

I also know someone who was going to get a Leupold but was talked into a Nikon because someone told him that Nikon is just as good... now he's kicking himself because he ended up hitting his scope and now has to buy another one... I'm not talking about scopes in the range of $440+ but I had to share this story since it is has happened very recently.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Leupold is one of them, Nikon is just as good as Leupold

While I agree on the quality, I don't agree on the price assessment; Monarchs are almost as expensive as VX-II/VX-III scopes. So are higher end Bushnells, Weavers, Burris, etc.

$400-$600 will get you a good scope from any of these reputable manufacturers.

 

[68wj]

Be sure to check with the scope makers that you are considering. Many offer military discounts and will let you get a better scope at the budget.

Don't forget Trijicon too as their Accupoint line is very good glass (but outside your current budget).

 

[Art Eatman]

I guess I figure that a 1,000-yard scope would work just fine for 400.

Advice? I'd ask Zak Smith, since he competes in the 1,000-yard games. Or any other regular competitor.

This "ratio" thing seems to be an Internet deal. If a scope meets the particular need and is of sufficient quality to be durable, the price is pretty much irrelevant.

For instance, I'm no fan of Tasco, but I bought a Bushie Match Target with a Worldclass 6x24x40 on it. The adjustments were precise and repeatable. The POI did not change with a change in magnification. About 500 rounds had been run through the rifle before I bought it and I put around a hundred through it before I sold it. So, "Damfino." Again, I don't advise buying a Tasco.

Target shooting at differing ranges makes repeatability of adjustments very important, and that adds to cost. Long-term reliable durability typically means more cost, although many medium-priced scopes will pretty much last forever. I'll let Zak speak to magnification.

 

[USSR]

muncherndn,

Aside from the price (and in optics, you generally DO get what you pay for), be sure to check out the amount of W&E that is built into the scope. This is particularly important when used with a .308 at LR. Oh, and I certainly hope there are 20 MOA rails available for your model of rifle.

Don

 

[jem375]

Although I also think that Nikon is just as good as Leupold, I prefer Leupold because of the lifetime warranty. I have had to use that warranty when my rifle/scope hit the ground when I slipped while climbing up a hill while hunting.

I also know someone who was going to get a Leupold but was talked into a Nikon because someone told him that Nikon is just as good... now he's kicking himself because he ended up hitting his scope and now has to buy another one... I'm not talking about scopes in the range of $440+ but I had to share this story since it is has happened very recently.

I think Nikon has a lifetime warranty also and why he didn't send the scope back to Nikon only he can answer that one...

 

[slowr1der]

My advise would be to check the the SWFA SS 3-9x42. I don't think you can get anything else that comes close in that price range.

 

[springfield30-06]

I think Nikon has a lifetime warranty also and why he didn't send the scope back to Nikon only he can answer that one...

I didn't realize that Nikon has a lifetime warranty! I must have only seen the 1 year on electronics and assumed that it was for all scopes... I'll have to let him know. Thanks!

 

[bman940]

Nikon does have a lifetime warranty. If your buddy needs warranty help I would be happy to help him thru the return process ?
Munch, I have the same rifle you are talking about and it is a shooter! Took my fater in law out today and first time ever shooting a rifle like this clover feafed 3 shots! He weas impressed and so was I! I have taken mine out to 623 yards using Nikon's BDC reticle. Utilizing Nikon's Spot On Ballistic Program will give you the distances after taking into consideration the cal and ammo you are using. I know you can find a Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 Mil in your price range.
Here's a pic of my father in law buring up my ammo at a record pace!
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd363/bman940/DaveandAR.jpg

 

[rojocorsa]

Buy the best money can afford. Just because you're starting out doesn't mean you have to skimp on quality. Just remember that with glass, you really get what you pay for.

 

[1stmarine]

If you are serving wish you a safe return.
The vortex Viper is a great option 4-16 is plenty but the best Viper the PST goes up to the $700-800's.

magnification it really depends what you are going to shoot. If you are just hitting large plates of steel you can see them well with 4-16 but if you are trying to shoot a little PD at 700 yards then you need more mag.

Don't beat yourself too hard. There are scopes for $300 that do better than some scopes 3 times that price. Now, there are scopes in the $900 that do as well as some scopes around $1500 and then the rest.

IMO best value for the money......

Burris Tactical, Xtreme..
Bushnell 2.5-16x42 Elite Tactical
Nikon Coyote or Monarch 4-15 or 6-25 mil dot
Hawke Sidewinder
Leupold Tactical VX-R and others in the middle (made here)
SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical
Vortex Viper PST (a little more pricey but totally worthy)
Wotac 4.5-14x44 Tactical

Many models above starting from a simple fulfilled or Nikon will do a good job or just bite the bullet and go for a IOR, NF or S&B.

Also for entry level and geared for hunting there is also a nice Redfield that is owned by leopold but this are not for tactical use but very good glass and value nevertheless, made here in the USA.
Millets are heavy and not good chromatic qualities but might work ok for you.

 

[Damon555]

Once you start talking about scoping an $1800 rifle with a $400 scope red flags go up everywhere. Do yourself a favor and give some consideration to some $800-1000 offerings....I'm sorry, but at 1000 yards the old 3x9 swift just ain't gonna cut it either. Leupold, Burris, Nikon, Zeiss, and Swarovski are all very good optics that will work for what you want it for.

Are you going to reload? If not, 308 ammo will eat your money up real quick. If you spend a grand on a 5.56 or 223 with a fast twist then you can throw some extra money into the scope and not get eaten alive by ammo prices....(as bad).

 

[1stmarine]

3-9 is perfectly ok. It has been used for many years for all sort of distances. It is not so much the magnification that depends on the size of the intended target but the quality of the optics, reticule and adjustments.
But personally I agree if 1000yards is the desired scope and the system can do well on this range it might deserve some more investment maybe closer to the 800-1000 area.
That is why I personally will go with the Viper PST but this doesn't mean you cannot make the Wotac 4.5-14x44 Tactical work.
Lots of folks use this one with great success at long range.
Cheers.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Once you start talking about scoping an $1800 rifle with a $400 scope red flags go up everywhere."

Guano. Granted, I'm a hunter and not a long-range target shooter. And, a Rem 700 Ti doesn't cost $1,800, but they don't give them away. As long as I can get sub-MOA with my used Leupold Vari-X II 3x9x40 to 400 and more yards, why should I spend more than the $150 I paid for it?

I've had no difficulty for sub-MOA on my 500-yard range with ninety-nine buck's worth of Simmons 44 Mag 3x10, either.

Were I trying for tight groups at 1,000, sure, I'd move up the ladder in magnification and quality of the controls--but that doesn't mean a gun's worth of money to get good results.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Once you start talking about scoping an $1800 rifle with a $400 scope red flags go up everywhere.

I have a $150 scope on a $1,500 rifle. And you know what? That 3-9x Nikon Prostaff works just fine for zapping piggies with my AR-10 carbine.

I also have a $600 scope on a $600 rifle, because the .25-06 has the range to justify a 4.5-14x optic, and leupolds take their licks better than others, which matters when hunting the rockies in late November.

It's all about needs, and he can get plenty of scope in the $400-$600 range for what he's doing. I shoot praire dogs at nearly a half mile using a $500 Monarch 6.5-20x 44mm.

The notion that a $500 optic won't work as well on a $2,000 rifle as it will on a $700 rifle is one that I find particularly silly.

 

[muncherndn]

Thank you all for your sound advice and not berating me for such an oft-posed question. I think I have decided to save some pennies between now and March and purchase a....... Vortex Viper PST 6-24 X 50.

Thanks to all who recommended this and all other options. I read extensively on Snipershide scope reviews and I kept going back to the Viper PST. I realize that I may eventually need to purchase a 20 moa mount, but will likely max out at 400 - 600m for the near future. If I venture to big-boy distances, I have eyed an aadmount 20 moa unit.

I will begin reloading when I get home. I look forward to the experience (Very slowly and carefully) of tailoring my ammunition to my weapon's preference. Reloading should also save me money on my other new hobby of Cowboy Action. I know it's the polar opposite of this post, but I convinced my wife to let me get the whole set up - minus lever rifle months ago.

I will make it a point to update this posting when I finally DEROS and experience Wanenmacher's with a chunk of change (Hopefully still enough for that 640 pro). Thank you again for your kind words and sage advice.

Respectfully,


Jesse

 

[Jim Watson]

The VV has a good reputation in its price range and will serve better than less expensive or lower powered scopes.

I am glad to see that you are planning on handloading.
Anything beyond say 300 yards is going to call for better ammo than military or cheapmart stuff. And factory match is expensive.

Be advised that CAS not only calls for four firearms, it also calls for period attire.
When your wife sees what the cowgirls are wearing, you may have other purchases to make to get her equipped and in style.

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

Millet and Nikon make all the scope most shooters will ever need for field use, at a very affordable and reasonable price.

I haven't owned any Millet scopes since the buyout, so I don't know if there was any quality change or not. The older ones were very good.

For my money now though, I have been VERY pleased with Nikons current line of entry and mid level products.