Rifles that have changed history

[romper stomper]

Hi all, new to the board, thought I would start a bit of discussion on the military firearms that have had the most profound affect on world history, everyone list 5 guns.

The Brown bess musket (main infantry weapon from the seven years war to the crimean conflict)

The Lee-enfield series of rifles

The American M1 garand (first mainstream semi-auto combat rifle)

the AK-47 (most common assault rifle in the world)

The M-16 (as much as I hate the .223, it was the transition from old fashioned battle rifles to the new plastic fantastic design of assault rifles)

Hey lads, tell me what you think!

 

[Preacherman]

Hmmm... let's have a go.

1. The musket (Brown Bess and foreign equivalents): allowed armies to standardize on a deadly weapon that did not require years of practice to master (such as the longbow).

2. The Maxim gun, as the first practical, portable machine-gun.

3. The Mauser rifle (which was in turn the model for virtually all bolt-action military rifles that followed it).

4. The Garand, which was the first semi-auto standard-issue rifle, and influenced all others that followed it.

5. The Parrott and Whitworth rifled cannon (US Civil War era), which ushered in the widespread use of rifling and breech-loading in artillery, which has continued as the standard to this day.

Not all rifles, to be sure, but all involved rifling!

 

[otomik]

1. mauser 98, basis of sprinfield 1903 and most bolt actions today.
2. italian mannlicher-carcano 6.5mm, specifically in the hands of Lee Harvey Oswald
3. M1918 BAR, also the basis of the near universal FN MAG and all it's variations

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'll be a little less specific and name the some actions...

Side lock, in particular the precusion cap.

Falling block type actions (single shot cartridge rifles in general)

Bolt actions

Full auto (maxim)

Semi auto assualt rifle (garand)

Oddly enough the lever action never really was a player in major military development was it?

Everything we use now is a derivative of the mauser or some type of gas operated semi or fully auto. There really hasn't been any great break throughs in last 75 years or so. Hmmm.

 

[fix]

1. Kentucky Rifle
2. M1 Garand
3. AK-47
4. 98 Mauser
5. M16

...in order of their impact. JMHO

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As an 85-year old woman who guides tours on the Vicksburg battlefield pointed out, "The Minie Ball has killed more men than the atomic bomb."

 

[MaterDei]

I second the comment on the minie ball.

 

[Ed]

Vern, that would be Mrs Roberta Alexander right?

Back to topic:

Kentucky rifle
Mauser design
M1 Garand
AK47
I'll say M1 carbine too. It led to the ( in the US at least) widespread use of a shorter rifle with detachable magazine. And as a M2 a short assault weapon.

As ugly as I think they are , whatever was the first Bullpup. As much as I dislike them I can see things going that way in the future.

 

[rauchman]

Hmmmm.

I'm not as knowledgeable on the older stuff, but here goes.

Kentucky rifle
Mauser bolt action
M1 garand
STG44 - The 1st assault rifle
M16

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Ed asked, "Vern, that would be Mrs Roberta Alexander right?"

Yes, indeed!

And a trip with her is worth every penny it costs!

"Theah's th' Union Cemeta'y. And THEAH'S th Confedr't Cemeta'y.

"You see the stones ah' white in th' Confedr't Cemeta'y an' gray in th' Union Cemeta'y. Thass cause we ladies come out with ouah buckets an' scrub brushes.

"Now ovah theah by that cedah tree in th' Union Cemeta'y, you can see a white stone. Thass a Confedr't boy that was buried theah by mistake."

 

[Black Dragon]

It's either the Discovery Channel or the History Channel that has the
tails of the gun. They have one that is the Top 10 guns that have change
history. If I can remember and this is not by order.

The Brown Bess
Maxim Machine Gun
M1 Garand
AK47
Colt 1911
Thompson 45
M16
BAR
Mauser bolt action

I can't remember the last one.

 

[Kodiak AK]

I can't believe it took 9 posts to get the STG44 up there.

 

[telewinz]

The Garand, which was the first semi-auto standard-issue rifle, and influenced all others that followed it.

WHAT? The SVT 40, the FN49, the FNFAL, the SKS, the Hakim, the AK47, the MAS, the G3, the G43, and the STG44. Just how were they influenced by the Garand and how much did the designers pay the US Government in royalties? Seems to me that the Garand design was pretty much a dead end design outside this country. The BAR (outserved the Garand) would seem to have more of a claim to that "title" than the Garand.

Oddly enough the lever action never really was a player in major military development was it?

How about the Martini-Henry, the Spencer, the 1866 Winchester (the Turks) and the odd assortment of lever actions that put Custer into the ground. Winchester even made a military musket.

 

[fix]

Actually, I believe the Mexicans were the first to issue a semi. Mondragon (sp).

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The title of the thread is "Rifles that have changed history."

With that in mind, I would point out that many of the rifles offered, while certainly notable designs, didn't manage to CHANGE history.

The Germans, with the M98 Mauser failed in WWI and WWII. The Soviets, even with such a notable design as the AK 47 and varients are no more -- replaced by the remnants of the once-great Communist empire.

The ONE rifle in the 20th Century that decisively changed history is clearly the M1 Garand. We WON the Second World War, turned Communish back in Korea, and went on to emerge as the last man standing in the Superpower game.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, if victory is the main qualification in this competition, the 91/30 Mosion Nagant would beat the Garand hands down. The Garand shares its glory with the SMLE's and even Ross rifles of the Western Front, and it only really had an impact in 1944 and 1945 The 91/30 was the main Alliance weapon on the Eastern front from 1941 on, and with it the Red Army took over all of East Europe, setting the stage for the Cold War. It was fending off Hitler's army while we were still trying to build an army. The Garand's impact on history was comparatively small. It was largely replaced by the time of the Korean conflict, and was not used too much after that. The 91/30 continued to be used in Vietnam and is still used in combat in Afghanistan and Central Asia to this day.

 

[fix]

Eastern front? Ummm...Pacific Theater anyone?

Seems the Garand had 2 fronts while the Mosin had 1.

It was largely replaced by the time of the Korean conflict, and was not used too much after that.

Replaced? Ummm...no it wasn't.

 

[N3rday]

Yes, I was just thinking about the Mosin-Nagant! Two world wars, correct? Used by the best sniper on Earth (Simo Hanya), etc.

Garand certainly, STG44, Mauser, AK etc.

Yes, the m-16 too...but I consider the STG as a small-caliber rifle, the M-16 was just another step in the same direction, albeit more plasticy and futuristic
Oh, and much lighter too

 

[Mike Irwin]

Telewinz,

The Martini-Henry really isn't a lever action rifle. It's a falling-block, actuated by a lever. If it fed from a magazine, like the Spencer, I'd say yes.

Fix,

The Moisin-Nagant saw service on multiple fronts, as well. Prior to US entry in the war the Japanese and Soviets fought a series of VERY nasty clashes along the Mongolian/Manchurian/Siberia border. Plus, there was also the "Winter War" against Finland. Don't discount the MN's service just because it saw most of its combat use against Germans.

For me...

1. Brown Bess. That's got to be number one. The general pattern was in use for over 200 years, during which time the British built probably the most influential empire the world has ever seen.

2. The AK-47. In many ways it is today what the Brown Bess was 200 years ago.

3. The basic Mauser action. Adopted almost worldwide, even in the United States. I'd have to say, though, that the Mauser action's period of greatest influence really came BEFORE the K98 was developed.

4. Ok, the Garand. Proved to be the first truly successful semi-action rifle adopted by any military force.

5. MP/STG 44. Obvious choice.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Guys, the Brown Bess was not a rifle. It was a musket, a smoothbore.

Not that I'm gainsaying it's historical significance, but let's be technically accurate here.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Vern,

I strongly disagree with your assessment of the AK-47. Simply because the nation that designed the rifle isn't with us any longer doesn't mean that we can discount the pervasive influence that the AK has had in countless nations around the world. Remember, it was the arm that the Vietcong and NVA used to drive the Americans to distraction and has given the firepower to hundreds, if not thousands, of small clashes worldwide in the last 50 years.


It can also be persuasively argued that the Moisin-Nagant had as much to do with winning World War II as the Garand, or even the Lee-Enfield.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Agreed on the Mauser and M1 Garand.

Non-military:

Remington 700s, 740s and 760s.

Put high powered, safe rifles in the hands of the ordinary American. Even if they're only shot a few times a year for deer, they are cherished and we need their owners to help us fight back the AWB and other encroachments on RKBA.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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Actually, if victory is the main qualification in this competition, the 91/30 Mosion Nagant would beat the Garand hands down.
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Actually, the Russians LOST WWI and virtually surrendered to the Germans at the Treaty of Brest-Ltovsk.

Quote:
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Simply because the nation that designed the rifle isn't with us any longer doesn't mean that we can discount the pervasive influence that the AK has had in countless nations around the world.
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It's certainly ubiquitous, but it didn't figure in WWII, and the Vietnam War was not won by military action, but by political action in the US.

I don't knock any weapon, but if "changing history" is the criteria, I'd give pride of place to the M1 rifle.

Of course the fact that I carried one during my first tour in Vietnam (after wrapping my issued M2 Carbine around a tree) may prejudice me in the M1s favor.

 

[Cosmoline]

Actually, the Russians LOST WWI and virtually surrendered to the Germans at the Treaty of Brest-Ltovsk.

Yes, but that wasn't with the 91/30. As the name suggests the 91/30 was not around until after WWI. The 91/30 was the rifle used by the Red Army from Stalingrad to Manchuria, and has continued to serve thereafter. If the Garand is counted as one of history's most influential rifles, the 91/30 must also be counted.

But frankly I think we may be getting off track and confusing a rifle's historical influence with the influence of the men who carried it. The GARAND didn't serve bravely--it's a chunk of steel and wood. Nor did the Garand take any territory. Nor did Your M-1 do your tour in Vietnam, for that matter. You did, and you deserve 100% of the honor associated with that tour.

No, these are objects of engineering and I think their historical significance should be viewed in the context of engineering. To that extent I don't think ANY firearm changed history. People change history.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"the Vietnam War was not won by military action, but by political action in the US."

And the reason for the political action? Largely little skinny guys in black PJs running around with AK-47s, who refused to fight like a real army and who refused to give up.

The consequences of the Vietnam war, both internally and internationally, for the United States were nothing short of catastrophic, as well.

As for the M1 Garand changing history, there were more M1 carbines made than Garands.

There are two ways of looking at this question, really...

The effect a firearm has had by being either the first, or the first successful, or the type leader, unit at some aspect. For example, the M1 Garand was the first truly successful semi-auto battle rifle. The Stg-44 was the first truly successful "assault rifle" and kicked off the entire class. Finally, the Mauser turnbolt action.

Then there's the social, political, and economic impact that a weapon has had. It's not monumental because of its technological superiority, it's monumental because of the sweeping social change (good or bad) that has been brought by those who wield it.

Both the Moisin-Nagant and the AK-47 belong in that class. The M-N heralded in the age of the Iron Curtain and repressive Communism in Europe, and the AK-47 was largely the arm of choice for Communism on the move.

The Brown Bess... Just a typical musket, not unlike the French, Spanish, Russian, Belgian, and Prussian muskets of the day. But in the hands of British troops, it was a weapon that forced "Anglification" of nearly 1/4 of the world's population and resources.