Rock River Arms or Spikes Tactical Mid-Length Upper

[saddlerocker]

Im looking to get my first AR and Ive decided to build a lower from a parks kit and buy a complete upper + barrel assembly.

I registered on m4carbine.net, but 3 days later have not been activated yet in order to post. I figure some people here are just as knowledgeable so what the heck.

Anyone have an Idea of which company has a better product/reputation?
Both are mid-length chrome lined uppers for roughly the same price. Spikes may have a long wait time, but im not in a hurry.

RRA:
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=266

Spikes Tactical:
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spikes-tactical-16-midlength-le-upper-556-p-392.html

Any opinions are welcome
Thanks

 

[kwelz]

Of the two the spikes is a no brainer. I have some issues with Spikes and the owner but they at least try to produce a rifle that will hold up. RRA cuts a lot of corners and charges far to much for a product that is high on "Fit and finish" but low on actual long term durability.

You would also be well served by looking at BCM and Daniel defense.

Not sure why you are having trouble registering on M4C.net. You should have gotten an email to activate your account.

 

[saddlerocker]

Thanks for the reply.

I tried hard to work a BCM into the equation, but its just too much money.

The upper is more, plus it has no BCG or charging handle ect...

Trying to find a happy medium between the lowest tier delton/olympic, and the upper tier BCM, Daniel, Colt ect...

Im going real basic on the lower and lower parts kit, but want a good upper.
I have a build in mind that should be about $875 with transfer fee for the stripped lower. So hopefully under 950-1000 after shipping and any other little things. Under $1000 is where I want to be.

About m4c.net, I got the email, clicked the link said it is activated, but I need an admin to actually activate it so I can post I think. no biggie.

 

[Breakmyfootoff]

I've not owned a Del-Ton personally, but from the research I've done on budget AR's, they should probably be a little further up on your list. Pretty much every post I've seen about them is positive, and the price is pretty unbeatable. You can get a complete Del-Ton midlength rifle kit for 560.00 including the stripped lower reciever, 50.00 more if you want the chrome lined barrel.

 

[saddlerocker]

Delton was honestly my first choice, I was almost 100% decided on them, but I have heard 2 main issues with them.
Staking is pretty crappy and the feed ramps are poor.

Probably neither are big deals, but If I can upgrade from that for the same money or only slightly more, staying under my $1000 budget, I would like to.

 

[kwelz]

There are a lot bigger issues to worry about with Del-Ton and RRA than staking.

 

[mokin]

I had good experience with Spike's. They had "Enhanced lower parts kits" on sale when I was building my rifle. Great fit in my Stag lower. I ended up going with a Daniel Defense stripped upper though. While doing research for my build (shopping) I got the impression that Del-ton was seriously underrated.

 

[john5036]

I'll +1 for the Spikes given the two choices. RRA's will go boom and it'll probably serve your purposes, but with the Spike's for less money, you get a higher quality AR, and an arguably better lifetime warranty (non-limited vs. RRAs limited). My experience with Spike's customer service has been a huge plus as well.

In the interest of full disclosure, I own a Spike's and I'm very happy with it, and the purchasing process.

 

[1stmarine]

The receivers do not matter the internals and a good barrel is what matters.

Key things that you look for:
Up to spec chamber
Up to spec BCG - shrouded firing pin, properly stacked key, MP tested, etc..
Properly gassed and squared gas block.
Chrome lined is more durable but some w/o chrome are more accurate.
Nice.
Functional and crisp trigger group. (2 stage is nice for DM role).

Other little things that are secondary..
Stacked buffer tube nut.
smooth and fully operational lower parts, mag release, bolt stop, etc...
Nice iron sights and floating handguard with rails is a plus.
If you are intending suppressed look for adjustable gas block.

All those mentioned here along with many others are very good systems.
If you like the 2 stage trigger the RRA is hard to beat for that money.
Delton fitted with an M16 BCG is awesome. RRA, Delton, Colt many parts from the same mill. Spikes good ones too.

Anything up to spec is hard to go wrong. If you like a skull or some fancy logo in the receiver and do not mind paying for it then that is ok too.

Cheers.
E.

 

[1stmarine]

Oh boy... I hope we do not make you go crazy here.

Before you say no to the RRA and Delton or any other Inform yourself. RRA and Delton both had won contracts with many LE agencies around the conutry. I have several of those along with many other brands and are really good.

I think that classifying the RRA in the "they go bang" category is kind of a joke. Many parts are milled in the same place as the Colts. They have as many inspection points as any of the best AR's out there and it is not fair to the brand and to the OP.

Cheers,
E.

 

[Z-Michigan]

+1 to everything Kwelz said.

I own uppers from Spike's, Del-Ton, Daniel Defense, and others. Spike's is excellent for the money. I can't recommend Del-Ton as more than a plinker, although it is a cosmetically pretty plinker. DD is better than Spike's but of course costs more. Get the Spike's and you aren't likely to look back. I do not own an RRA but they are very near the bottom of my list of companies I would buy from - for me they are above DPMS and below nearly all others. Although, again, their products are usually cosmetically pretty. If you want to know all the gory details do a search.

 

[1stmarine]

A delton with a wilson barrel and M16 Bolt/group a plinker? LOL!

saddlerocker, go find a good reliable source for info.

think like a bullet!

 

[kwelz]

A delton with a wilson barrel and M16 Bolt/group a plinker?

That would be correct. Fine for casual use but that would be it.


And RRA or Delton or any other company getting LEO contracts doesn't really mean much. Those decisions are often made by beancounters with no check in place like you see from the US government. I have seen departments use DPMS guns also and frankly I feel that such a disregard for the life of the officers is criminal.

Delton or RRA would be fine as a budget choice. But we are not talking about any real price difference here. When it comes down to it they just can't compete in the real world when better options are the same price.

 

[1stmarine]

Actually a lot of LE they do a thorough evaluation even within a budget. Savage was awarded a huge contract of sniper systems with the Philipino Swat forces when everyone thought one of the big boys was going to get the game. Cost was compared but terminal performance was the determining factor.
Same thing with some of these systems.

What better options? What purpose?

How long the barrel lasted?
How many failures and why?
Accuracy?

Talk facts, not just opinions.

 

[kwelz]

Reliability, quality of components used, Proper testing or components and ten proper QC.

Del-Ton and RRA lack more than one of the above. If they were half the price I guess there would be an argument. They are not however.

 

[1stmarine]

What is specifically wrong with them? please be specific.

Reliability:

Quality of components used:

Proper testing:

Components and ten proper QC:


Please tell me as much as you know about the actual manufacturing process of the RRA or any other commercial M4/ML build to Mil spec standards.
I do have many other AR's. I do not work for any of these companies or any armorer or gunstore. I have been using ARs for 30 years both in the service and as a civilian and I am just curious.

 

[Samson7]

Bottom line...
Spikes is cheaper and better built. They are a best buy in the AR world.

 

[kwelz]

Reliability: This is a factor of all of the following. But RRA, De-Ton, Etc have a higher observed failure rate than companies that follow the TDP in materials and testing.

Quality of components used:
The most obvious difference is the barrel steel. While it could be argued that 414 steel is ok for non full auto use there is no reason not to use the better 4150 or 11595E certified steel. Bolt Steel is another big consideration here. As is properly shot peening the bolt.

Proper testing: BP/MPI testing is very important in a high pressure weapon such as an M4/AR. It can catch a lot of potential problems with barrels and usually every lot has a few that are rejected. Companies that cut corners by batch testing aren't going to catch the problem barrels/bolts as often as testing each barrel

Components and then proper QC: Proper QC is where so many companies fall flat. This is even more basic than the testing above. Just a quick look at the rifle and a function check. I have seen RRA with pins so tight you needed a vice and hammer to get them apart. Another had an end plate so far out of spec that it was painful to hold the gun.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I own a Del-Ton upper (as part of a rifle kit) and I have closely inspected two other Del-Ton complete uppers which were bought by friends. They are relatively good for a kit maker, but that's not saying much.

Here are issues I've seen personally:
-I regularly compete at 2-gun matches; typical rifle round count is under 100. At three of the last four matches there has been a competitor who was shooting a Del-Ton upper and had their bolt fail by losing lugs (a different person and DTI upper each time). There have not been other bolt failures at the same matches. You should know, about 1-2 years ago DTI had a HUGE run of defective bolts.
-I used Ned Christiansen's 5.56 NATO chamber-tester gauge on my DTI and one of the friend's, and guess what, it is clearly not a 5.56 NATO chamber despite the markings. I was pleasantly surprised to find that barrels from the following companies WERE 5.56 NATO: CMMG, Spike's, DS Arms, Armalite, and not surprisingly Daniel Defense.
-the quality of the DTI LPK is junk. In the lower I assembled with it the magazine catch was binding, the bolt catch was loose, and the safety selector is tight. I've replaced the first two and will be replacing the last one. I would have been far better off just assembling with a quality LPK. (Oh, btw, DPMS is the second-worse LPK I've used.)

That's my firsthand, personal experience. There is plenty more info on this forum and others.

 

[saddlerocker]

thanks for all the input.

I agree that some of the lower tier companies might be totally fine, but for only a small bit more money, it sounds like you can get a higher quality product.

Its definatly a slippery slope, where do you stop and say no, thats as much as I want to spend. For me its $1000. I know there are alot of good rifles for $1,050-$1,100, but im not goin there.

 

[OhioChief]

I have built Del-Ton lowers and have 2 del-ton uppers. They are great for the price, never once an issue. I also have 3 RRA's. I don't have any experience with Spikes. But I would not trade any of my RRA stuff. I like it, it shoots great. Never had a problem. I've downed deer & hogs (and a bobcat) with my RRA LAR-8, and shot the sht out of my .556. I've got a .458 SOCOM that that is well built. I like RRA. Good American company, Good American gun!

 

[kwelz]

One other point I completely forgot about. RRA are Heavy SOBs. Unless they have changed things lately one of their cost saving measures is to not turn the barrels down to a normal profile. So you have a lot of extra steel under those handguards.

 

[1stmarine]

Many Thanks for all the answers. This is interesting. Please see my comments.

Reliability: This is a factor of all of the following. But RRA, De-Ton, Etc have a higher observed failure rate than companies that follow the TDP in materials and testing. Observed rate of failure is this documented somewhere? I can find failures with any AR system known most likely pointing the one most critical part in an AR design ,the BCG. I wonder if an official reliable record is kept somewhere? I don not see a well assembled Delton (like many good others) fail? Where is this documented?
Lets stay away from the occasional post from a rookie builder that is playing legos with the AR.


Quality of components used:
The most obvious difference is the barrel steel. While it could be argued that 414 steel is ok for non full auto use there is no reason not to use the better 4150 or 11595E certified steel. Bolt Steel is another big consideration here. As is properly shot peening the bolt.

Barrel: Negative. The steel Delton uses is actually 4150. http://www.del-ton.com/Del_Ton_AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt2003.htm
This is the exact same barrel used in several top tier systems.

Bolt: When you choose a build or a finished carbine for serious use what makes sense is to choose their M16 BCG. This is the same actual part as in a colt MPI and HPT. Machined from 8620 steel, heat treated, manganese phosphated per Mil-DTL-16232G. The bolt is machined from Carpenter 158, shot peened, mag pen inspected and manganese phosphated per Mil-DTL-16232G. Then the gas key tube is hard chromed and key is properly staked and torqued

Proper testing: BP/MPI testing is very important in a high pressure weapon such as an M4/AR. It can catch a lot of potential problems with barrels and usually every lot has a few that are rejected. Companies that cut corners by batch testing aren't going to catch the problem barrels/bolts as often as testing each barrel.

I agree with you on the testing but it looks that you are not up to date on the Del-ton and RRA manufacturing process. Delton does test for MPI and HP. At the same time having a Mil-B11595E barrel steel is the best this is also one of the most costly parts and the least likely to fail in a semi-auto role, even if they were not HP tested, which they are.


Components and then proper QC: Proper QC is where so many companies fall flat. This is even more basic than the testing above. Just a quick look at the rifle and a function check. I have seen RRA with pins so tight you needed a vice and hammer to get them apart. Another had an end plate so far out of spec that it was painful to hold the gun.

I agree on the QC but for the price I have not found one single "low tier" Delton, RRA, Stag, Bushmaster out of spec.(Actually one Bushmaster with the chamber out of spec). Even if they do not provide the same checkpoint list as it is mandatory in colt I am sure it is pretty darn close and if you want the one by the Army's checklist then be ready to pay $500 extra bucks.

My favorite? hard to say, might be my latest SI-defense or even my LMT M4 but I am very careful not to bash out other good companies because of their lower price point that otherwise do a great job with their product. Regarding the build kits we cannot complain since the responsibility of proper assembly and function is not on the manufacturer anymore (other than fully finished assemblies). This is a choice some make so they can get that great deal and have fun. All that we can ask is for good parts. I have seen a lot of malfunctions due to poorly assembly and inspection of kits. Mostly folks that do not know what it means to have a robust critical defense AR

Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

kwelz,
You are right, more weight but there is an accuracy gain. Specially with the non-chromed M4 barrel they have. Extremely accurate. I do not consider this in the top for defensive but very reliable otherwise. I used in both versions DI and Piston with Adams. Both run great. Zero failures after 4K+ and 3K+ rounds. They print below MOA with good ammo. The Piston has less recoil than a ruger 10/22.

This weekend I am going to run a tactical course of 400-600 rounds and I will use one of the Deltons ML. Has never failed after 7K rounds and I believe most likely will never fail with standard preventive maintenance.
This again, is M16 BCG all built from DTI kit and all up to spec 100%. Even when I build other uppers I always can rely on Delton for good quality parts for other builds, like many others.

I will make sure to make some pictures so the Delton infidels can see it running.

In my posts I never said anything bad about Spikes which by the way they are great systems. No doubt about that.

Cheers,
E.

 

[Zerodefect]

Actually a lot of LE they do a thorough evaluation even within a budget. Savage was awarded a huge contract of sniper systems with the Philipino Swat forces when everyone thought one of the big boys was going to get the game. Cost was compared but terminal performance was the determining factor.
Same thing with some of these systems.

What better options? What purpose?

How long the barrel lasted?
How many failures and why?
Accuracy?

Talk facts, not just opinions.

We'll Savage can walk the walk, at least. The last Savage 10fp I was lucky enough to try, shot excellent.
But Savage is committed to offering a decent price in a bolt action market that thrives on rediculous pricing. $$$$ is what won that bid. Savage is good stuff.

RRA, Delton, not so much...... they are only a hair cheaper than far better rifles.

PD's aren't the best sources of advice on firearms. I wouldn't follow what they do at all. Some still use Thompsons and Mini 14s. (Hopefully just for training)




Anyways, I'd pick the Spikes over the RRA or Delton.



The failures of Delton/RRA/DPMS is unfortunately too familiar. Usually bolt, extractor, extractor spring, and RRA 2 stage trigger getting weird. Sometimes a bad chamber in the barrel. Sometimes crooked front sight base. Usually I like to help out at the range, but I'm getting a bit grumpy in my old age when I keep seeing the same failure over and over again.

RRA and DPMS stainless barrels acually shoot pretty accurately. It's more of a QC, small parts, and overall design that's lacking. They aren't keeping up with what shooters are learning.

The free RRA chrome bolt carrier group is cracking me up.