rocks/pebbles/4penny nails through a 12 gauge?

[kellyj00]

I've seen some pretty exotic 12 gauge ammo for sale, from flechette rounds to fire breathing rounds.

I'm wondering, what stops a guy from putting some aggregate pebbles like you'd find in concrete in his shotcup when reloading? Also, what about 4 penny nails?

*Note* This is a question of 'what would happen?' and 'why doesn't this happen?' Not an endorsement to try it. I take no responsibility if you're uninformed enough to think that a forum posting is a recipe for a SAFE shotgun reload.

 

[News Shooter]

I don't have the guts to do it

But I've known people who shoot dimes out of a .12 ga

 

[TrapperReady]

what stops a guy from putting some aggregate pebbles like you'd find in concrete in his shotcup when reloading? Also, what about 4 penny nails?

Nothing would stop someone from doing it, aside from common sense. What uber-effect is going to be achieved through shooting a bunch of crap instead of properly formed lead shot? If gravel and nails were more effective, then police and miltary units would be using them already.

A couple specific problems (in addition to the almost assuredly horrible "patterns") would include:

- etching the inside of the barrel
- potentially blowing up the gun if some of the projectiles clumped together to act as an obstruction

So, if you're looking to spend time making up shells which will be less effective, damage the barrel, and may have the added bonus of causing an explosion near your head... have at it.

[head shaking]
Maybe I came back here too soon.
[/head shaking]

 

[unrealtrip]

All sorts of rounds tested: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

Stack of dimes, salt rock, etc.

Generally speaking it isn't a good idea.

 

[unrealtrip]

Specifically, here's your dime test: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm

To jump to the conclusion:

Lessons learned:
1. Dimes are much too light in weight and un-aerodynamic to fly very far, no matter how fast they are started.

2. They do not spread out as much as some expected.

3. Dimes do not penetrate enough, even at close range, to reach the vital organs of a goblin and STOP a fight.

4. It only costs about $1.60 a shot to have some fun shooting stuff with dimes.

 

[Onmilo]

Well,,,, many years ago, in the time of my youth, I owned a Navy Arms "Morse" 12 guage single barrel black powder muzzle loading shotgun.
My buddy and I used to 'experimentally' fire all kinds of projectiles through that gun, pebbles, bits of coal, .690" lead balls connected together with brass chain, glass shards, wire snipped into 1/4" lengths, old used up trout flies, you name it we probably stuffed it down the barrel and fired it.
Thinking back on the whole thing, it was a wonder we didn't blow that gun up and hurt ourselves, because some of the load practices were what people would call extreme.

I will totally agree with the other posters that in most cases the penetrating capabilities as well as the ranging capabilities of the projectiles were extremely lacking for the rather vicious recoil some of the stuff produced.
Most of the stuff wouldn't break a ceramic Steak N' Shake coffee mug at 40 feet.

I will tell you that small bits of steel performed almost as well as lead shot and that may be why steel shot became the projectile of choice when the lawmakers decided lead shot ammunition had to go and the ammo makers scrambled to find something to replace it.

Kids, don't try this at home, I was a whole lot dumber back in my youth.

 

[unrealtrip]

I did see a really interesting load years back. More or less it was 2 large metal ball bearings connected by a spring, that when fired became a bolo-whip type of device, effectively cleaving in half the target. I think it was shomer-tec that was selling them, they also had the incidiary loads and what not as well as ceramic knives. This was about 1997 or so.

 

[Bud Tugly]

Most rocks are MUCH harder than steel, so they'd gouge off some of the inside of the barrel as they rattled along it. Unless it was an absoute survival situation, it would be a foolish destruction of your barrel.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Bad idea.....

 

[Gustav]

Best to go with factory ammo would hate to ruin any good barrel with premature wear or even a bulge.
Just because something has been or can be done is not a good enough reason to do so.
Common sense first of all, second why give the anti's any more print time or ammunition to use against our sport?
Liability would be a BIG concern better to stick with proven loads.

 

[Plink]

Lead is denser than rocks, glass, etc. A sphere is more ballistically efficient than random shapes too. Shooting junk is not going to be nearly as effective as lead shot at keeping a pattern together, or penetrating flesh.

 

[Onmilo]

If rocks are harder than steel then why did our ancestors leave the stone age in favor of the iron age?????????

 

[rkh]

^^ because iron is workable and stone is brittle?

 

[kellyj00]

thanks for the replies.
I'm thinking something still doesn't add up. Doesn't a shot cup kinda keep lead/steel shot from touching the barrel? Granted, I don't think there's any way to test this, but I'd imagine the shot cup pushes the shot out of the firearm as one big unit and enforces the same amount of energy on ALL the pellets rather than the innermost pellets the most and bouncing shot off the walls of the barrel.

That said, a 3d finish nail is made out of steel. In fact, steel shot is made from the same fashion, a long stretch of wire is cut into pieces and, in the case of nails, pressure is added to make a 'head'. With steel shot, the wire is cut into much smaller pieces and then rolled under extreme pressures. Same way they make ball bearings... cool process.

 

[TrapperReady]

A shot cup would add some protection. In general, the wads used for steel and certain other non-toxic loads are thicker than those used for lead. Then again, shot is round and less likely to penetrate the wad petals than something much harder and pointy.

There are a whole variety of forces at play when a shotshell is fired. Things like setback, shot column height, wad design, powder burn rate, primer type, forcing cone length and angle, choke constriction, etc... As Dave McCracken has oft stated, shotguns and hand-grenades have similar operating pressures. As a reloader, it is important to use well-tested and published recipes.

Filling a shotshell with a bunch of junk is off the edge of the map. There be dragons there. Besides, there are already readily available, highly effective, SAFE and well-tested shells that can be purchased almost anywhere.

 

[alucard0822]

back in the 1800s they used to load these giant shot guns with a few pounds of rocks, glass, nails, whatever was available for fowl hunting. They were supposed to be able do down a dozen or so ducks or geese in one shot. But nowadays I always wondered why they don't use brass or copper shot as a non (low) toxic lead alternative, it's softer and heavier than steel, a lot less expensive than bismuth and is increasingly popular in pistol and rifle bullets, For all I know they already have it, but I haven't seen solid brass/copper, only plated lead.

 

[alucard0822]

they were called punt guns

 

[Bud Tugly]

Moh's hardness scale is used to rate materials on a scale of 1 (softest, e.g talc) to 10 (hardest, e.g. diamond). Raw iron has a hardness of about 5, a typical knife blade about 6.5, and the hardest of steels about 7-8. While there are some softer rocks like limestone (about 4), most common rocks have hardnesses in the 6-8 range. Most lead alloys are down in the 2-3 range.

The general rule is that if A is harder than B, then A will scratch B. In the gun world, this means severe barrel erosion will happen if the shot material is harder than the barrel. The softer the shot, the less erosion risk.

That's why lead is so perfect as a shot material. It's much softer than steel (minimal barrel erosion) and it also has a high density so it retains energy well. Gold would be even better than lead (about 50% denser and also soft) but we don't use it for obvious reasons.

Rocks will not only erode your barrel terribly, but they are also less dense than lead so they will retain less energy. If you want to try them for fun, be sure to use an old beater gun that you're planning on throwing away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_hardness_scale