Rookie Shotgun Questions

[mtravinski]

I'm about to buy a shotgun for HD, but have always wanted to get into shooting clay as well, plus how else am I going to learn with the thing...

My two questions are:

1) What is the difference between trap, skeet and "5 stand sporting clay"? The range by my house in Concord, Ca apparently does all 3 and gives lessons, but I don't want to be so clueless walking in that I don't even know what the game is!

2) I'm down to Mossy 500 or Remington 870. For the HD role, I don't want anything more than 20-inch barrel. Can I play clay with that, or do I need to go for one of those combo packages with 28-inch barrel for the range?

Thanks in advance all you shotgun experts!

 

[KenW.]

In trap the clay pidgeons fly away from you at varying angles. For trap, a long barrel (28-30 inches) with a full choke is preferred. Typical load is 1 1/8 oz of #7.5-#8 shot.

For skeet, a 26-26 inch barrel with "skeet" choke works well. Typical load is 1 1/8 oz of #9 shot. The clays fly across in front of you as you move between eight stations in a semi-circular layout. They come from two houses; a high and a low; at your command.

I grew up shootuing skeet and only dabbled in trap. Never have shot sporting clays.

Either of the pump guns you mentioned will work well. Esp the 870 because the barrels can be changed at the drop of a hat. Never changed one on a 500.

Home defense can be a short barrel with 00 or 000 buck. Even trap loads or #4 shot will ruin someone's day at inside-the-house ranges though.

 

[627PCFan]

Its too easy to get a combo set of barrels for whatever you buy so you have a barrel for each setup. A 20 inch will get you by for both but you will have to make concessions for each type of shooting-

 

[hmphargh]

Either of the pump guns you mentioned will work well. Esp the 870 because the barrels can be changed at the drop of a hat. Never changed one on a 500.

Changing out the barrel on a 500 is just as easy, make sure it is unloaded, unscrew the screw at the end of the mag tube, half-pump the fore end, and slide the barrel forward. Pretty much the same as an 870 I believe.

I'm also fairly certain that Mossberg barrels are cheaper than Remington barrels. I prefer the 500 because the safety on the back of the receiver is more left handed friendly than the safety above the trigger on the 870.

 

[wgp]

You'll find the short barrel that works best for HD will not swing as smoothly on clay targets, but use it anyway and get out and shoot. If you find yourself liking targets you'll find an excuse to add a second barrel or a second shotgun. Remember also that interchangeable choke tubes will let you make your shotgun more versatile.

Sporting Clays is usually a lengthy course with varying target set-ups, something like a golf course would be for a golfer. 5-Stand is a form of Sporting Clays where 5 shooting positions are lined up next to each other and each shooter takes his/her turn, kind of like trap or skeet, but the clay targets are thrown at random from several throwers out in front of the shooters. There is some random-ness in trap and 5-stand, but in skeet and the sporting clays courses I have shot you know when and where the target will be thrown. I'm not much good at any of them but it's all fun.

 

[oneounceload]

Trap, skeet, 5-stand, and sporting clays are different games requiring different skills. All involve the necessity to smoothly move the gun while firing to hit the target.

Trap involves a single house centered on the field of five stations. The trap oscillates in an arc side to side with set parameters for speed and distance. 5 single shots are fired at 5 targets and then you move to the next station. 25 targets involve 25 shots.

Skeet has two houses for machines - one high at station 1 and and one low at station 2. Originally a full circle, safety dictates made making it a half circle. At stations 1, 2, 6, and 7, you will fire at one single from each house and then a pair of doubles. Target angles, speed and distance are rigorously regimented. From 3,4,5, and 8 you will get a single from each house. 25 targets involve 25 shots.

5-stand is a compact form of sporting clays, involving 5 shooting stations and using typically, 8 machines or more. Typical menu is a single (can use two shots), followed by two pairs. The pairs may be report or true pairs. Shots are taken in turn and shooters rotate to the next station. Targets will be different from course to course, unlike trap and skeet which are the same everywhere. Presentaions may include springing teals, rabbits, incomers, outgoers from overhead, quartering shots, crossers, chondelles, battues, minis and midis, among others. 25 targets involve up to 30 shots.

Sporting Clays is 5-stand's big brother. Can range from 10 to 14 stations (typical) NO tow courses are alike - each taking advantage of the terrain and the mischievous desire of the target setter. All targets may be found coming from any possible location. 100 targets involve 100 shots, typically thrown as true pairs, report pairs or following pairs.

Trap and skeet have evolved into games where shooters try not to miss. Perfect scores are the norm and result in shootoffs. 5-stand and sporting clays are where the shooter tries to hit as many as he/she can. Perfect scores in registered sporting clay tournaments are as rare as hen's teeth.

Personally, I find the repetitiveness of trap and skeet boring. I much prefer the challenges of a variety of targets found in sporting clays. From there you go to FITASC which is basically sporting clays on steroids where the targets are faster and farther away

 

[mtravinski]

Thank you all for the responses. Sounds like they are all forms of shooting a clay disk flying through the air, the difference being the direction, source and trajectory of the target, position of the shooter and number of/speed of shots. Can't wait to try it!

 

[MachIVshooter]

It's alot of fun, and you can do it with a shorter tube, but it's a handicap. As is the 870 or 500; field guns are kinda forced into that role, and the shooter pays the price, often with a very sore cheek at the end of the day from the comb slamming you with every shot.

But since many of us can't afford a nice $5k or more single barrel or O/U, we make do with our bird and HD guns.

For trap, a long barrel (28-30 inches) with a full choke is preferred. Typical load is 1 1/8 oz of #7.5-#8 shot.

Full is really too much, unless you're shooting a long handicap. I always used IC, LM or M for trap. With a double gun, IC in one and LM or M in the other is a great combination.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Clay shooting is good training and as much fun as can be had fully dressed, standing up.

A riot barrel can be made to work for some clay games, but a longer barrel will be less frustrating and more productive.

One nice bennie to using a HD gun, besides building the muscle memory needed for expertise, is a longer barreled second gun of the same make and model will work better for the games but have similar controls, moves and "Feel" as your defensive tool.

I did this a long time back, and still have great moves with my defensive tools.

The good thing about doing this with an 870 or 500 is a second one is easy to find and cheap to buy.

HTH....

 

[ricklin]

Stretch the budget

I really like a break open gun for clays. I enjoy the way the gun handles on the line. I also like the safe at a glance feature of a break open.

Used to be a big fan of S X S I have moved on to O /U and I now prefer it.

That,s the great thing about guns, lots of variety, make your choice and enjoy.

 

[LoneCoon]

I'm a rookie at this too, so I'll ask here.

I bought a box of clays and a hand thrower, so I'll be throwing trap at the range. My wife and a few friends who have also never shot trap are coming. What's important to know? I've got a Stoeger 16ga double and a Savage 16ga semi auto.

 

[hammerklavier]

Isn't the rabbit in sporting clays rolling on the ground instead of airborne?

 

[UKShooter]

Thats correct. The rabbit clay is a bit thicker so it has a wider edge and it is rolled along the ground. They are fairly realistic as any little rock or bit of uneven ground will cause them to skip. They can be quite tricky to hit!

 

[Fred Fuller]

how else am I going to learn with the thing...

There are IMHO differences in shooting a shotgun, and fighting with a shotgun. There's a very efficient way to learn how to fight with a shotgun.

It's called training, and it's widely available- though not necessarily inexpensive, IMHO it's a completely worthwhile investment. The two instructors linked below are by no means the only ones out there teaching defensive shotgun these days, but are IMHO both of world class quality.

fwiw,

lpl
-----------------------------
http://www.yfainc.com/

TACTICAL SHOTGUN - STAGE I

As with the Stage I Handgun, this course is designed to create reflexive gunhandling, competent marksmanship and tactical thinking. In addition it places strong emphasis on learning what the shotgun will, and most particularly WILL NOT, do. The importance of patterning the shotgun properly is discussed at length. The course also covers ammunition selection, loading and unloading, reloading and ammunition selection while involved in a shooting scenario, shooting from several ready positions and various tactical body positions, dim-light and flashlight shooting, shooting on the move, moving targets, multiple targets and weapon retention. Transition to a pistol is covered for those clients who have taken prior pistol training.

Ammunition requirement is 400 Birdshot, 50 Buckshot and 70 Slugs. Fifty (50) rounds of Pistol ammunition is required if the client wishes to participate in the Shotgun/Pistol transition portion of the course.



TACTICAL SHOTGUN - STAGE II

Building on the skills learned in Stage I, the course compounds the problems, adding target angles, vital zone definition under stress, one-handed operation, transitioning to a secondary weapon, increased speed and longer distances, multiple moving targets and dim light/flashlight scenarios. Stage I Shotgun is a prerequisite to this course.

Ammunition requirement is 400 Birdshot, 50 Buckshot, 75 Slugs, and 100 Pistol.
============================

http://www.guntactics.com/

SHOTGUN I
Our concept of this ubiquitous and often misunderstood weapon is entirely devoted to it's use in the antipersonnel mode. Our training is designed to clarify both the versatility and the limitations of the weapon. The syllabus covers tactical manipulation, patterning characteristics,
the mount, deployment in both indoor and outdoor situations, use of the sling or carry strap, ammunition selection, night shooting, and transition from shoulder fired weapon to handgun. A 3-day course.
Ammunition Requirement: 250 Birdshot
50 Buckshot
125 Slugs
50 Handgun


SHOTGUN II
Advanced Combat Shotgun: A fast paced program which challenges the student to perform at a higher level while under mental and physical stress. Team drills and tactical simulators become an important part of this course. The student's awareness of his own individual ability to react, manipulate the weapon, and hit the target while simultaneously remaining mentally engaged with a changing environment is the objective. A 3-day course.
Ammunition Requirement: 250 Birdshot
100 Buckshot
150 Slugs
100 Handgun

 

[natman]

You will want an 18.5" barrel for HD, but realistically you'll need a longer barrel for any kind of wingshooting.

Follow the Big 5 flyers, they regularly have the Mossberg 500 two barrel combo on sale. (Right now as a matter of fact, till May 8th.)

 

[oneounceload]

I bought a box of clays and a hand thrower, so I'll be throwing trap at the range. My wife and a few friends who have also never shot trap are coming. What's important to know? I've got a Stoeger 16ga double and a Savage 16ga semi auto.

While a hand thrower is not technically a trap, I understand what you're getting at - some home-thrown "pasture clays"

Important to know - FIRST AND FOREMOST is safety, including eyes and ears for everyone in the vicinity, including any kids. Gun fit is crucial, and for most women, standard stocks are too long, resulting in more perceived recoil and less fun - don't be surprised if they have had enough after a few shots due to that issue.

Keep the gun moving - shooting at dynamic targets is NOT the same as shooting a rifle or pistol at a stationary piece of paper - follow-through is paramount to success. If they start to flinch in anticipation of recoil (see gun not fitting above0, let someone else go so they do not develop said flinch or hatred due to pain.

Find the lightest target loads you can (may be difficult with 16 gauge)

Have fun, and don't pop the top on the beer until after everything is done

 

[LoneCoon]

Good advice, one ounce. I plan on going back out in two weeks more more friends, more clay, and more importantly, more ammo. Who knew shooting could be this much fun?

 

[oneounceload]

Took my wife out shooting sporting clays today - last time she went was 4 YEARS ago (place also has pistol and rifle - that helps). She had a blast - literally - with my SKB 28 gauge O/U that has a short or youth stock. Still not quite the best fit, but if she shows a continued interest, that is easily rectified.

For most women and kids, a less expensive route is a youth-stocked semi from the likes of Beretta or similar - easy to modify and easy to sell if they change their mind

 

[DHart]

Mossberg vs. Remington.... the stuff of countless threads. Both are top guns.

I prefer Mossberg because I don't need to move my trigger finger to operate the safety or the slide release and because with the Mossberg, the lifter is up and completely out of the way of the magazine loading port... so you can top off the tube very easily without having to push the lifter up and out of the way when trying to load a shell into the mag tube on the Remy. Some folks have had jams associated with having to push the lifter out of the way. Though I'm sure with good technique such jams can be avoided.

Yes, you definitely can become accustomed to working the controls of either, but the Mossberg controls make more sense ergonomically for me. That said, I plan to add a Remy 870 to my pair of Mossbergs (18.5" 500 Persuader and 20" 590). If I had to have just one or the other, I'd lean toward the Mossberg in deference to the controls.

Other reasons why I lean toward Mossberg:

It could be argued that the Mossberg's two extractors are better than the 870's single extractor, though in practice one is probably not likely to experience the benefit of having two vs. one.

The receiver of the Mossberg is pre-drilled and tapped for scope/sight whereas the Remington receiver is not.

One thing I like better about the Remington is that they offer 7-shot 18.5" models, whereas Mossberg gives you six shots with the 18.5" models and you can't extend the mag tube on the 500. I still like the 6-shot 18.5" Mossberg, but it would be nice to be able to add an extension to bring capacity up another round. That said, if you don't mind stepping up 1 1/2 inch more, you can get an 8-shot Mossberg 500 or a 9-shot Mossberg 590 - each with 20" barrel. The nine-shot 590 is a great choice... I've got one along with a six-shot 500 Persuader and a Stoeger Coach Gun doing bedroom duty nightly. (Excessive perhaps, but I just like the guns and I like options too.)

The Remington Express Synthetic 7-round is a great choice for size/capacity. (18.5" barrel - 7-round capacity).

Both brands have many variations among their offerings. Go to the websites to check them out, as most gunshops only have a few of the many offerings in stock and most shops will steer you toward their in-stock choices rather than want to bother with a special order.

In the end, whichever one you pick is a good quality shotgun that should serve you well. Your decision should be based on ergonomics, feel in the hand, operating controls, etc.