RO's.....should the public be ALLOWED to have guns?

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Topgun

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Went to range. FIRST thing RO does is run outside to check the building wall to see if he can yell at me for parking in a handicapped space.
Nope....not marked.....darn......goes back in house.

Then at gate...."You're gonna need ear protection." I turn my head to show the plugs already in. (I put plugs in while IN the car and before opening the door) I also use muffs, but they are in bag.

DANG! Still no reason to yell about something......drat!

Which brings me to the point of this thread.

Do range officers ENJOY finding something to yell about, or is the public now so damned stupid that MOST of em NEED a good yellin-at?

I can imagine that most 20-35 year old shooters never grew up with a dad....or at least....THEIR ....... dad. Which would maybe account for a general unfamiliarity with guns. Hence, drive most RO's crazy.

I can't imagine ....enjoying......yelling around to feel "powerful" but I have witnessed that more than I care to think about.

So......from a RO point of view.........should everyone have to have a PROFICIENCY test before even GETTING a gun?

:confused:
 
Sounds a little overzealous, but after some of the things I've seen go on on ranges...

I would think that RO's would learn to spot the troublemakers and monitor them more closely, while leaving someone who obviously knows what they're doing to their own devices.

For example, the guy two lanes down trying to fix his shiny chromed-looking POS with a rock nearly putting a hole in his foot while lecturing to his 10-year-old about the problems with buying cheap guns: Dangerous.

I'd bet there's an instinct about this that would be developed fairly early on. When to yell, when to put on a bulletproof vest, or when to just duck as that shiny pistol sweeps toward you...
 
I too have noticed that some RO's seem to feel pretty "high and mighty". I would consider myself a very safe shooter, I have been rased around guns my entire life. It seems that no matter what I do at a certian range around town the RO must make a point to try to yell at somone for a saftey infringement. I figure just take his crap and come out on top the better man.
 
I cannot speak to ROs at commercial ranges, but let's remember that there are no set minimum standards for competence when it comes to guns. With a car you have to demsonstrate some skill, even if it is bogus, like parallel parking. With guns there is'nt even that level, and imagine the uproar if training was mandatory for gun usage. As an instructor, I have to assume and prepare for the worse, especially in regards to safety.

I would also think that for lack of a better term there are differing realms of safety and competence. What is acceptable and appropriate at a sporting clays range is going to be waay different at a military or police range.

The other problem is that everyone is an expert, because Granpap showed them how to kill a rabbit. Or they shot clays at the Greenbriar, or who knows what. Given the personalities drawn to this particular activity, we do not always handle what we perceive to be intrusions very well.

Personally, I think the public should be REQUIRED to have guns. And have a minimum of 80 hours training.
 
Got no bones with RO's and SAFETY violations. Crack down and ...hard.

But I saw one poor guy who at the "cease fire" command, opened his lever gun and put it down. Now that is NOT right. It should be EMPTY in my opinion. But he didn't know HOW to empty it other than shooting it I guess.

The RO yelled at the guy who didn't KNOW what to do.

I wanted to grab the gun, hold it downrange and lever the rounds all over the bench but NO ONE is allowed to approach the bench. (which also is good IMO)

But the RO could have just as easily SHOWN the guy how to do it and had a happy shooter instead of one who will probably never shoot at a sanctioned range again.

This RO is the reason I am no longer a MEMBER of the range. I still go and pay full price for occasional visits. But not regularly like I did.

Just an unpleasant experience and a detriment to the range.

NO real shooter enjoys watching badgering.

And the crappy part is that when his muzzle loading buddies show up, there might as well be NO supervision because he spends all his time BS'ing.


And........YES.......I have (as have many others) complained to the club.

Must be a nephew or sumpin.

:mad:
 
I atleast partly agree with the training aspect assuming it wasn't meant as a stepping stone to further infringing on our rights but I've seen too many foolish people at indoor ranges shoot the ceiling, shoot the concrete floor not 3 feet in front of me, pull jammed weapons away from the line and swing em around with their finger still on the trigger, guys that stay at the line to load mags when others go down range and on and on. I can somewhat empathize with ROs being that jumpy when there are so many recklass people out there. That said I have been at a range (los altos) , it's pretty big, thre were maybe 5 people in the entire place non of which were in my section. They guy was bent on yelling at me. at the cease fire signal I drop the mag out lock the slide back lay em down (pointing down range) and walk back to the big yellow line and sit down at the bench waiting for the all clear signal. he yells at me foor having my foot on the line (which runs directly in front of the bench) ofcourse i dont talk back because that's counter productive, so i stand up and walk back a few feet behind the line. it's things like that that get me frustrated with the guys. But for every one of them i get 4 that will come and chat with you after changing targets before resume firing signal.
 
It's a personality thing how some ROs act. Some do get off on a power trip and the mall ninja tacticality of riding heard over other shooters.

But to lump all into one group is, to be polite, silly.

When I have range duty at my club and see someone do something dangerous, I have no qualms yelling "STOP!". Yelling gets their attention through the noise and ears. My intent isn't to embarrass or demean, my intent (and responsibility) is to keep someone from getting injured or killed. The vast majority of times, the shooter wasn't even aware (s)he was doing something dangerous and, when done right (firm intervention followed by friendly instruction) they learn from the experience (like, pay attention to the muzzle).

But there have been those times when the shooter may have felt like I'm picking on him. So be it: I have little tolerance for shooters who think the safety rules don't apply to them and refuse repeated opportunities to modify their actions.

No way to tell who's going to be safe just by looking at them. And there are times when experienced and safe shooters go brain-dead for a moment and need to be reminded to pay attention.

I'm on RO duty one day every six weeks. It's something I look forward to, and something I'm glad when it's over. ;)
 
Well, it takes all types.

There are RO's that are jerks, and Shooters that are jerks.

As far as safety, it's hard to be overzealous. Thankfully, the people I RO for all have to pass a qualifier before they can even shoot with our group. I can afford to be a little more laid back than an RO at a range with a bunch of 1st timers swinging guns around willy-nilly.

With that said, I do wear a vest when RO'ing. We run a hot range, so all guns must be loaded at all times, unless cased. That also means that the gun must be holstered or slung unless on the line. Makes things easier to monitor than a range where people are walking all around with guns in their hands.
 
The range officers at the range I go to(Backwood Traps in Little Elm) always try to be real helpful and friendly. A couple of them have offered some advice that helped me shot better.
 
Well, there is certainly nothing stopping commercial ranges from imposing their own standards of training or compentency in their own environment. I'd even go as far as to think that both the neophyte and the experienced shooter might think of it as a positive benefit, if it were presented correctly.

If one had the personnel, saying "Oh, you want to use our range, great, I'll either need you to demonstrate your competency, or we'd be glad to have you attend one of our free safety classes that we hold every X days," could be a positive draw.

There's lots of things that the state shouldn't do that are perfectly fine if done by individuals and private entities.

Dex
firedevil_smiley.gif
 
the supervised range i go to has a couple people that work as RO's, and they allow shooters to volunteer to help out. the RO works the rifle range, and volunteers run the pistol range. the LR and shotgun ranges are called by the shooters.

the biggest thing the RO's have been working on is shooters bringing uncased guns onto a cold firing line. the last 3 times the RO has chewed shooters out for doing that. he tells them that when the line is cold, they should hang back until it goes hot so they can approach with their uncased weapon. typically a rifle or shotgun, but some people will come up with a pistol or revolver in one hand and a bag of ammo in the other.

i also go to an unsupervised range, which gets, lets say a little interesting at times. experienced shooters will call the line hot and cold to set up targets, but noobs will still think its okay to shoot, just in another direction. the look on the experienced shooters faces as they are downrange is priceless when they whip around cause their buddy starts blasting away to the left. i've also found myself looking down one too many muzzles from these noobs.

so lately i've been going there later in the evening, after 7 and because of the excess daylight we get, i can stay till 10:30 when it gets a little dark. not many shooters show up at that time. last weekend some teenagers showed up instead of going to prom parties. they had m1a's, springfield 1903s, shotguns, ar15's. theres only one bench, about ten feet, and 5 of us were shooting shoulder to shoulder. the muzzle blasts were terrific! 308 and 30'06 to the right, .223 and 12 gauge to the left, woooooo boy it was fun!
 
Strange... I could show up at the range I go to all the time in black jeans, combat boots, a black "Static-X" t-shirt, and a trench coat. In fact, I sometimes do (if it's cold).

The RO's reaction? "That'll be $7.00... here's your target, your staple gun, and have fun!" as he leans back, cleaning an M1A whilst a Lucky Strike occupies a corner of his mouth. I walk out to the line, set up my stuff, lean back in a chair, and light up a Dunhill. Shooting commences, and at the end of the day I turn in the staplegun as he asks "Ya get 'em all in the same hole?" And so ends another good day of not-so-good shooting. :)

Y'all must have some bad luck with people in authority...

(btw, I go to the Banner Rd. range ~15miles outside the City)
 
The first RO I ever delt with was a real SOB.:scrutiny: I couldn't do anything right,so I thought.He hardly ever let me shoot more than 1 round at a time.And man if I even as much as thought about breaking the rules I was banned from the range for a week.:what: I admit I was only about 10 or 11 and not a real mature 10 or 11 either.But I guess it all worked out for the best though,I still enjoy shooting and especially with that crotchity old RO.
If you havn't guessed yet,it was my Dad!:D
 
All the RO's are volunteers where I shoot. All good guys. They bust balls for rapid fire but that is just because people were destroying target frames.
 
i also go to an unsupervised range, which gets, lets say a little interesting at times. experienced shooters will call the line hot and cold to set up targets, but noobs will still think its okay to shoot, just in another direction. the look on the experienced shooters faces as they are downrange is priceless when they whip around cause their buddy starts blasting away to the left. i've also found myself looking down one too many muzzles from these noobs.

Hey Spaceman, which range is that?
 
View from the other side

As a RO, my philosophy is better to be wrong and make some good shooter upset a little than have an accident. We don't know that you know good gun safety so we have to assume you need help if we see you doing anything we consider unsafe. All ranges have rules, I don't make them but my job is to enforce them, so I do. The best thing you can do is go often so the RSO's know you and your gun handling. Spend a whole day at the range watching people who come and go and you might understand why an RO does what he does. I've seen everything from loaded guns being waved around at people behind the firing line to guns going fully auto or people rapid firing and the ceiling getting peppered to someone putting a gun to their head and pulling the trigger, (something I never want to see again.) If I even suspect someone is about to do something unsafe or stupid, I usually don't wait for it to happen before I act.
 
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But I saw one poor guy who at the "cease fire" command, opened his lever gun and put it down. Now that is NOT right. It should be EMPTY in my opinion. But he didn't know HOW to empty it other than shooting it I guess.

The RO yelled at the guy who didn't KNOW what to do.

I wanted to grab the gun, hold it downrange and lever the rounds all over the bench but NO ONE is allowed to approach the bench. (which also is good IMO)

I don't own a lever action rifle, so maybe I'm missing something.

But it seems to me that at the CEASE FIRE command, the shooter did exactly the right thing.

The chamber was empty, the action was open, and he wasn't touching the weapon.

I'm going to take a not-so-wild guess and say that the shooter knew how to unload his rifle, and was confused (1) he didn't know why the RO yelling at him and (2) he didn't want to touch his weapon after the CEASE FIRE had been called for fear of being yelled at even more.
 
Maybe they yell because of hearing loss? Or they're just used to having to shout to be heard thru muffs/plugs?
 
You nailed it.

Do range officers ENJOY finding something to yell about, or is the public now so damned stupid that MOST of em NEED a good yellin-at?

If only one could compile a list of the stupid and dangerous things that were narrowly averted by an alert Range Officer.

Let me give an example or two of what I witnessed as an RO:

Patron swigs a beer before getting out of truck, with rifle in other hand, to get a bench from me. I tell him he needs to get rid of the beer. He guzzles the remainder down, right in front of me. I tell him he needs to leave the property. He calls me every dirty name he knew, threatened myself and my progeny, reminded me of my canine ancestry, and basically screamed at me the entire time until he and his pickup were off the range grounds. I suppose I could've called Sacramento County or Roseville PD and let them know there was a drunk driver on Highway 65.

Patron brings family members to range. It was during a cease-fire, so I told them about eye and ear protection for the upcoming firing session. One guy just nods and smiles. We'll call him Uncle Jose'. They read the range rules, sign in the visitor log, pay their range fees, set up their targets, and wait for the range to go hot. At the end of the 15 minute shooting session, I hit the buzzer and lights, and call Cease Fire. Everybody stops, clears their weapons, and waits for the RO walk-thru before I call the range cold. As I'm walking the line for the safety check, Uncle Jose' starts ripping more rounds off in the direction of his target. Again, I yell "Cease Fire", but only when I'm yelling in his ear does he get a clue. Turns out Uncle Jose' didn't speak, or understand, a word of English. The state of California would probably rule that any accident that happened there was my fault because I didn't run a bilingual range. I would beg to differ.

Wild turkeys often make guest appearances around the berms from 100 to 300 yards downrange. The range office doesn't put them there for patrons to shoot at, honest - they showed up on their own accord. So I called a Cease Fire, and another club member volunteers to drive down the access road towards the berms and shoo the gobblers off-range. That's all well and good, save for one good old boy, with a new Colt Single Action Army variant, who decides that he wants to anchor a turkey with a .45 Long Colt before the range volunteer can shoo them away. And also chooses to ignore my repeated "Cease Fire" shouting until, once again, I am on his position. In a clear, calm voice, eerily reminiscent of the drill sergeant in my basic training flight 18+ years ago, I reminded him that any wild turkey he popped out of season and without a license would be clearly identified as his responsibility to the local game warden, who was about to get a call with information about a certain poacher's description, vehicle make, and license plate number. If he didn't want that phone call made, it would be in his best interest to unload his revolver, case it, pick up his stuff, and depart the facility right now.

Did I mention this range was privately owned, on private property? Adjacent to the range property was a pasture, with cattle grazing every now and then right up against the fence line, which stretched all the way past the 300 meter berm on the right. It always unnerved me that somebody would want to take shots at those cows. One day, they did. It was a group of patrons who refused to fess up to which individual was cross-firing across several lanes and kicking up the dirt around the livestock's feet out there at 300 yards. So they all got to go home early. A couple weeks later, I got a phone call from the club president, who told me one of the farmer's cows had been shot, did I know anybody who was trying to do that on the weekend I had duty?

How about the guy, high-and-tight haircut, stepping out of his ex-police Caprice, wearing a full LE belt rig, complete with a brace of Sig's and mag pouches up the wazoo. Bypasses my greeting, and walks straight to an open bench and starts sending rounds into the 50-yard berm, thank you very much. Buzzer, "Cease Fire", adjutant's walk, etc. Remind him that this is not his private range, we have safety rules, would you be so kind as to sign in, then observe and abide by them? Since we seem to have an understanding, the next session, I'm surprised by him cussing and yelling at nobody in particular, and then focusing his outrage at one of his Sigs. I'm almost afraid to ask, but I do anyway. "Damn gun feels funny when it fires, and won't group for crap on the target" I pick up some of his brass. It's really easy to identify- 9mm Luger takes on a totally different shape when fired from a .40 S&W Sig. I send him down Highway 65.

Then I move to Florida, and get asked to help a nice range at Kennedy Space Center. Sure, I'd be happy to volunteer my time to keep a facility like that operational and safe.

A young patron arrives with his new Maadi AK variant, and several full mags. Ok, no problem, he reads the rules, signs in, and so forth, has eye and ear protection, doesn't touch guns during cease fire, and so forth. Except when the range goes hot, and I'm walking down the line on the far side of the range, I hear some pretty rapid fire. I turn around and see our hero standing up and sending rounds into the sky, the dirt in front of his 50-yard target stand, his target frame, his neighbor's target frame, and everywhere except where they're supposed to go. We have a little discussion about aimed and controlled fire, safety and all, don't ya know?

Except that during the next firing session, as I'm walking the line again, I hear more of the rapid fire, albeit more staccato, with a curious reverb. Looking towards our hero, he is now standing up, bump-firing the AK from the hip, and walking backwards from his shooting bench towards the parking lot, firing between the benches of other patrons, who are making themselves really small. Ok, this time, buzzer, "Cease Fire", and my Officer's ACP drawn and leveled. Partner RO's Glock is also drawn and leveled, when the guy actually notices us and says, "Whoa, dudes, whazzup?". :rolleyes: No discussions here, NASA/KSC armed guards escorted him off the property.

I have more, but my fingers tire.

I don't think of any of the above situations as a Range Officer power trip, or exercise in Mall Ninja tactics. If you're hired to run a safe facility, then by gawd you should run a safe facility and do your best to keep patrons from getting ventilated and leaking all over aforementioned facility. If you screw up and become a hazard to yourself and those around you, the Range Officer is doing what he's supposed to be doing, by removing the danger from the situation. If he hurts your feelings in the process, that's a by-product of him trying to keep you and others alive. And after what I've had people call me and threaten me with, I'm not too worried that I won't get a Christmas card from folks like the ones in the above examples.

On any given day I can show visitors the myriad holes in the covered shooting area's roof. None have happened on my watch, but they still happen, they didn't appear by themselves. A hole in the roof is something you can talk about afterwards without much regret. A hole in a patron is a different story. :(

Topgun, I like to believe everybody's got a 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear firearms. But if they're shooting at a facility and repeatedly demonstrate poor gun safety, or a exhibit a dangerous mindset, then they're welcome to take their constitutionally-guaranteed guns elsewhere, because they're nothing more than a serious liability at that point.
 
"...does is run outside to check the building wall to see if he can yell at me for parking in a handicapped space..." And left the range completely unsupervised? If so, that guy needs a refresher course in being an RO.
How many of you RO's have had loaded firearms pointed at you by incompetent shooters? I haven't personally, but know a guy who had a loaded, but jammed, SMG pointed at him while on a CF range long ago.
 
Yes. He left the range ...unsupervised.... to check for a parking violation. That didn't exist.

The....OTHER....geek. I forgot the REST of the lever gun story. He didn't just YELL at the poor guy. He CUSSED him out. He told him if he didn't get that G.D. gun unloaded, he was gonna shove it up his A**.

THAT'S uncalled for. On ANY range.

One of the incidents I remember was on another range that had a rule of no gun cases in the shooting area. I had a paper "gun sock" that I use to keep guns from rusting or banging in my safe. I leave em on til I get to range. I took off the sock, stuck it in my pocket and started in. RO asks "What do you think you're doing?" I honestly had no idea so looked stoopit dumb at him and said "Whaddya mean?"

He pointed at the sign and said "NO GUN CASES IN SHOOTING AREA."

Well, he was technically right, so I went back to the car and put the hanky sized wad of paper in the car. Rather than have a harangue over "common sense."

A RO job can NOT be fun, but it is (as far as I know) a.....voluntarily chosen job. Common sense should be present in all ....voluntary....jobs.

:D
 
I'm certified by the NRA as an RO, but I've never worked as one.

I go to two different ranges. If I'm just going to fire pistols or pistol-caliber, I go to a commercial indoor pistol range. Most of the staff are friendly, but there is no RO on duty at the range upstairs (they have a closed-circuit camera). Most of the time there is no problem. I once yelled at a couple of cocky young guys who wiped me and just about every one else with their muzzles. They packed up their stuff and left. OTOH, last time we went there were two young couples shooting and one of the ladies didn't have her ears on. I politely suggested she might want to put her hearing protection on, and she did.

When I want to shoot rifles and shotguns I go to Markham Park, which is a county-owned park west of Ft. Lauderdale. A few of the ROs are friendly, but most of them are crotchety and fussy and like to yell a lot. The guy who works the cash register permanently looks like he's sucking a lemon. I know someone who works there part-time, and he told me that the Broward County politicos are antis (case in point, our POS sheriff Ken Jenne, who lied on CNN, trying to convince everyone that "assault rifles" are more powerful than semiautos). He said the only reason a Broward county park has a firing range is that the land for the park was donated to the county with the condition that the range stay open to the public.

Here's a link about the Ken Jenne / CNN story, lest anyone forget:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32677
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/15/se.13.html
http://keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3591

And more about our wonderful sheriff:

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cach...ts/beth_reinhard/8452251.htm+ken+jenne+&hl=en

Sorry to get off-track, but our county politico's attitudes about gun owners seem to percolate down though the ranks to the county range ROs, who are county employees and mostly a$$holes.

I don't have a problem with ROs yelling at someone doing something unsafe (you HAVE to yell to make sure they heard you through the muffs), it's the attitude that comes across, the attitude that everyone but them is a moron. But I understand that they probably see all kinds of crazy and unsafe stuff.

When I yelled at the youngsters for failing to keep their firearms pointed in a safe direction, it wasn't my intent to demean, harass, insult, or humiliate them. I was just trying to protect my wife, myself, and everyone else at the range, and given that they were acting kinda like punks, I came across as a hardass.
 
Outside of the occasional IDPA match or a class, I hate shooting at official ranges.

I've been shooting since I was about 5. I shoot out in the boonies, informally most of the time.

I call my own cease fire, police my own saftey, and have a better time like that.

I'm not saying I know it all, I don't, not by a long shot. But I don't like being told how or when to shoot when I'm having a little quality time.

I understand they are needed after watching some newbies at a couple ranges. What's sad is someone in thier mid 20's with no clue when it comes to firearms.

I wonder if most ROs know that they can make or break a new shooter?
 
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