Round Ball Alternatives for C&B Revolvers

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

flmason

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
140
Is there any technical reason to not use standard bullet molds of the appropriate diameter, but casting just pure lead, to create C&B bullets?

For example, any reason why a Keith type SWC shouldn't be used?

Assuming that's an OK thing to do, what is the correct diameter to use, and is shaving of some lead expected as with round balls? (Same question for C&B specific conical ball molds as well on the shaving.)
 
Well, unless you're loading with a separate press you'll need to size the bullets short enough to fit into the little opening in the frame. There's not much room there for some of the longer shapes typically used for cartridges.

Check out the picture of some pistol conical bullets used in cap and ball pistols on the second page of THIS LINK
 
The other thing to concidder is that to facilitate in keeping the projectile inline to the chamber so that it can be loaded straight the conical projectiles of the past & the ones molded today for C&B revolvers are of a heeled design where the first band or the very base of the projectile is slightly smaller than the rest of the projectile.

For example:
The .450 200gr. Lee conicals for most .44 caliber C&B revolvers measure:
.442
.446
.450
The .456 220gr. Lee Conicals that fir the Ruger ROA & some other .44 caliber C&B revolvers measure:
.447
.451
.455
All are +/- .001

As long as the projectile would fit under the loading window & did have a heeled area to help keep it straight, most any would do the trick.
 
I have successfully loaded and fired the Speer 200 gr 45 SWC made for the 45ACP in the Remington, but the bullet won't pass under the loading cut in the Colt 1860. An off-the-gun loading stand would work fine as an alternative. The Speer (and the Hornady) 45 bullets are swaged of pure lead, and fit the chambers closely enough to stay in place through the recoil of shooting. It does make a much more authorative "clang" on steel plates.
 
@VoodooChile - Interesting point. Wasn't aware of it. So is there any shaving of lead with the Lee 200 Gr. conical? I may be confusing people, but I seem to recall you had a '58 Pietta-Remi repro?

I'm thinking of ordering that mold since it's designed for the job. Was hoping to pick a Kieth type SWC before you mentioned the heeled design aspect of things.

@rcflint - Interesting recommendation, I'll have to take a look at those.
 
@BCRider - Apparently I've reached my Google book preview limit on that book, LOL! Thanks for the link though. :)
 
how much deformation will you experiencewith the true SWC profile via the rammer during loading?
 
If you look at an original 1860 Army there is much more clearance under the rammer for conicals. Most repros have more metal under the arbor and a conical has a hard time rotating under the rammer because it strikes the barrel. The 44 cal "Navies" will only take a round ball. The 36 cal Navies will take conicals like the Lee.

I am a big fan of the LEE conicals. The 200gr works great in all my Remingtons. Thereis very little shaving of lead with the Ubertis and none with the Euroarms. The euroarms have beveled chamber mouths so the lead mostly swages when rammed sothere is no lead ring.
 
conicals

The rammer nose on the Remington will reshape the nose of the Speer SWC bullet a bit. Were I to make a habit of shooting them I would make a new plunger for my loading stand.
 
The rammer nose on the Uberti 1858's are cupped to more or less fit the .44 balls. So they would likely deform a SWC as well and turn it into a RNSWC..... :D

Also the chambers on my Ubertis are slightly chamfered but not flared. The chamfer has a sharpish edge that is going to perform a combination of swaging and slicing as compared to a true flare with rounded shape.
 
flmason said:
@VoodooChile - Interesting point. Wasn't aware of it. So is there any shaving of lead with the Lee 200 Gr. conical? I may be confusing people, but I seem to recall you had a '58 Pietta-Remi repro?

I'm thinking of ordering that mold since it's designed for the job. Was hoping to pick a Kieth type SWC before you mentioned the heeled design aspect of things.
Click to expand...

Yes the 200gr. Lee conical will shave lead when loaded into most .44 caliber repro. revolvers & they shoot quite well in my 24 year old Pietta NMA, my modified 2 year old Pietta NMA w/ 5.5" barrel shoots the 220gr. Lee conicals very well with a healthy charge of 30gr. FFFG.
 
@VoodooChile - Is that new Pietta modified? Can't recall who it was, wrote the reamed their chambers a bit.

What's the diameter on the 220 Conicals, have to admit, hadn't seen that mold on the Lee site.

Would be interesting to compare velocities, energy and momentums of the RB, 200 and 220 conicals. What I'm not sure of, is what the velocities of the 3 are for similar powder charges, so hard to guess where the additional bullet weight begins to cost on target preformance vrs. enhances it.
 
My experience with the conicals in cap and ball revolvers has been dismal.On the bright side,when sized correctly,they make great cast ''ball'' ammo for my .45 acp.
 
Yup, I reamed all 18 chambers for my lil cannon from .4465 to .4510 to accomodate the larger conical & to fill the bore's grove which is .4495.

My Velocity for my lil cannon is:

.456 220gr. conical.
30gr. FFFG Goex.
#11 Remington caps.
718 fps.
254 ft. lbs.

.457 142gr. ball.
30gr. FFFG Goex.
#11 Remington caps.
818 fps.
210 ft. lbs.
 
The lack of a pilot bearing bothers me a bit, but I'd be willing to give it shot on a cheap Pietta cylinder. Hand reamers, type: adjustable, quantity 2 . . . ordered.

Thanks Arcticap!
 
I've gotten a tool made to my specs by Starette that helps me center up on an existing hole to ream chambers. I use my milling machine(drill press can work well too) to ream with straight flute/four flute chucking reamers. Chucking reamers come in sizes in steps of .0015 and .001 inch. Take yer pick for what you want.
Anywhooo......with the chambers of the Italian reproductions being round and uniform mostly/only just at the beginning of the chamber and the rest of it(the majority of the chamber) tapered and not uniform(wide spots and narrow spots oblong shaped with some actually wider down inside) the "pilots" can be a mute or fraudulent or ill advised part of the reaming tool. You know....they don't work well. Even the adjustable wouldn't work well but would be the most likely to be able to do a decent job if the operator went in steps successsively larger to get the diameter they want or need.
The pilot has to be a very snug fit as in "no" play or looseness to it in the chamber. That means it can't go into the chamber very far without stopping at the tapered that begins when the pilot is still very shallow in the chamber. That means only an undersized chamber pilot will go in far enough. That means the hole has to be uniformed by other means first before the piloted reamer is used. That means it doesn't make any sense to use them. That means other applications are needed to ream chambers uniformily from one to the other so they are all exactly the same.
Naturally being "cap&ballers" (not as picky as cartridge revolvers in the specs) the revolvers can have chambers somewhat different from one to the other as long as the ball is swagged by the chambers to be right at groove diameter of slightly above groove diameter of the barrel.
I guess I'm saying that a person can "get by" with those tools shown but...they won't do a good job unless the chambers are uniformed from top to bottom first so the pilots actually work as they are intended.
In my opinon the chambers should all be exactly the same diameter(revolvers like that) and the most efficient way to do that is to have a machinist use chucking reamers(not piloted) to size the chambers once the reamers are centered on the existing holes. Thank God the holes are usually round at the very beginning so centering on the hole is possible.
I guess I'm saying that using the proper size chucking reamer would be the only way to get a good job done and the machinist has to have the knowledge to center on an existing hole.
Anywhoo......I'd say if you want a good job done then go to a machinist/gunsmith you can trust and have him/her ream your chambers. Pick a gunsmith that checks things out first before reaming also. If the chambers are not very close to being aligned with the grooves of the barrel to start with then reaming can cause more alignment maladjustment. Example...if a chamber is a little off to the right,say, then reaming the hole larger makes that even more to the right out of alignment.
That can cause the ball or bullet to deform and not enter the barrel properly and also can cause more pressure increase. Reaming the chambers of a cap&baller raises the pressures a good bit anyway without bullet or ball misalignment being more out of specs.
Machine shop supply distributors sell chucking reamers in any size you'd ever need and if a person has a good drill press they can do the job properly with a good machine vise. Do it properly if they can center on an existing hole well enough.
Believe me...reaming chambers is one of those,"easier said than done" things. It would be easier to do a good job with the drill press/milling machine than to try to use snug fit piloted reamers in tapered chambers. Not many of the Italian guns are without tapered chambers. Smaller the deeper you measure.
Example...tight pilot(has to be snug to function well as a pilot) on the reamer for a .450 hole. Pilot goes in a short ways and stops because the hole is tapered. What now? You would have to uniform the diameter of the hole to ream far enough with the piloted reamer to do any good. How? Use a reamer to uniform the hole to use a piloted reamer?
It just makes more sense to do the job correctly and use a non piloted reamer right off the bat. That non piloted reamer would be a chucking reamer that has to be used on a drill press or a milling machine. I'm repeating myself.
I use a tool I had Starette make for me to be able to center on an existing hole. Did I say that already? Well...I just want to get it across that to ream without messing up the alignment of the chambers to the rifling grooves(notice I didn't say bore) in the barrel,if they are right to begin with, one has to be able to center on an existing hole first. You know....since the piloted reamers that would center themselves don't work in tapered out of round holes.
Don't want to burst anyones bubble but I've been through all this already so I could ,"ream chambers for tuned up guns", the right way. Gotta do it the right way when working on someone elses gun. Well....same goes for doing your own gun.
Believe me...you're better off trying to find a gunsmith to do the reaming but....gotta know how to ask about the method used since a gunsmith may not use the right method. May only "eyeball" to center on the hole or use a piloted reamer that would need a loose pilot to work.
In the beginning I tried to get machinsts/gunsmiths to ream chambers for me and got bad results like chambers put out of alignment and oblong holes ect.ect.ect.
I had to learn to do it properly myself. Don't you feel sorry for me? ha ha ha ha
When a cap&baller is reamed properly and the alignment is good enough they can be real tack drivers.
I wouldn't recommend using powders like 777 after a chamber is reamed although I've not had a problem when I tested it. It just is too hot. I wouldn't recommend using max blackpowder charges all the time like in Walkers or Dragoons or 1860 Colts either. The walls get thinner even tough the reaming is usually very little. Walkersd and Dragoods(especially Walkers) can have to be reamed a good bit to get the balls swagged to be at groove diameter. Example...Uberti Walker can have chambers that are .449-.450 and barrel grooves at .464-5. That would be about up to .016 reaming of the chambers and that would make for .008 off each side of the hole. That can add up. That makes maximum loads a little scarry. You know like 60gr. FFFg in a Walker or the redused volume of 777 powder. Pressures go up when the balls fit the barrels right and tight.
Anywhooooo....piloted reamers for chambers ain't all they's cracked up to be. First time I used a pioted ream I had made I found the chambers to be piloted and had to use a chucking reamer to uniform the chambers to use the piloted reamer. It did a good job but I realized it made no sense to ream a hole so it would be uniform enough to use a piloted reamer. ha ha ha ha
 
Last edited:
Rifle, it sounds like you're concerned with what we used to call "blueprinting" in the racing car engine rebuilding business/hobby. Before you can do improvements the issue is to check for manufacturing errors and then try to do the mods to correct those errors as well as make the mod add something to the recipe. By correcting and perfecting the alignment and sizing of the items you're in effect improving them from the get go before you even add the improving mods, if any.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
Lee Conical in a Cap and Ball
Replies
4
Views
3K
Hellgate
Hellgate
I
  • Locked
New to casting ball and conical.
Replies
24
Views
956
wittzo
W
W
  • Locked
Casting Your Own Balls/Conical Bullets
Replies
3
Views
976
Steve499
S
R
  • Locked
Combination Bullet/Round Ball mold: Anybody used one?
Replies
6
Views
502
Gatofeo
Gatofeo
S
  • Locked
Casting Balls
Replies
15
Views
1K
Palehorseman
P
Back
Top