Cheaper than Dirt has some Sellier & Bellot rubber buck and rubber slugs for 12GA, what's the consensus on using that for home defense rounds? legal impact? usefullness? I'm thinking of getting some because it just seems like it would render an invader pretty useless pretty quickly. lemme know what you all think and know about it.
Rubber Shot/Slugs for HD?
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I don't know- when I see this ammo for sale, it often comes with a note that you need the proper training to use "less lethal" loads.
If your intention is to only disable an intruder, training may be something to consider. I'd think it would be as simple as shooting COM with it, but there are probably considerations with range.
I'd be curious to hear what happens when a rubber slug hits sheetrock or a stud, too.
If your intention is to only disable an intruder, training may be something to consider. I'd think it would be as simple as shooting COM with it, but there are probably considerations with range.
I'd be curious to hear what happens when a rubber slug hits sheetrock or a stud, too.
The reason they specify needing 'training' is because most LTL shotshells are lethal or very injurious inside 10yds. If you shoot someone at 5-10 ft with rubber buckshot, it will likely kill them because the pellets are moving a lot faster than they would be at 30-40 ft. Rubber shot/slug projectiles have the same size as their lead counterparts, but don't have the weight so they slow down much quicker.
I'm thinking that it would be sort of like an across the room hammer, i know they're only really less than lethal at some distance, so in the event that i had to use it (been some odd things happening near my apartment) i'm hoping it would take the wind out of someone's sails really fast, and make them stop moving till the police arrived. or give them massive blunt force trauma.
collateral
Member
IMO, I would rather have lethal rounds. Somebody who would harm you and your family wouldnt do you the favor of firing less than lethal rounds at you.
From what Ive heard, if you discharge a firearm at somebody, whether its loaded with LTL or the real thing, its treated the same.
Theres no doubt that rubber shot and slugs are effective, the police wouldnt use them if they werent. They seem to bust up riots pretty quickly...
627PCFan
Member
Basic training: If the situation is so dire that you have to shoot someone with a firearm, shoot to kill, not to maime, not to disable-
sm
member
Less Lethal has less likelihood of being lethal.
LEO and other First Responders go toward serious situations.
Civilians are well advised to learn to avoid trouble, evade trouble if trouble shows up, and if cannot deal with trouble.
Stop the threat!
One would not use a Less Lethal Fire Extinguisher - a fire (threat) needs to be stopped now!
I did not say the fire had to be "extinguished" , I said "stopped".
One does everything they can to avoid fires in the home.
Prevention with electrical wiring up to code and maintained, not over loading circuits, not leaving the stove unattended while cooking, smoke detectors and other prudent steps.
Evade with practice fire drills from various areas of the home to deal with fires that may be in various parts of home, or on property.
Deal with it. One might have to snag a box of baking soda kept near the stove to deal with a grease fire, this allows them to snag the kitchen fire extinguisher - family is in evade mode.
Next up is getting the bigger fire extinguisher to allow one's self or others, to evade, while waiting for First Responders.
Snagging the garden hose, maybe neighbors snag theirs and dealing with fire until FD and others can arrive.
I do not want a Fire Dept to show up with Less Lethal water, axes , ladders, anything else.
I want the Threat stopped!
Home Defense is the same way.
Specialty ammunition has a place for First Responders, whether it be rubber axes for a FD person to learn correct use of, or LEO rubber bullets for crowd control.
These First Responders not only have training, and continued training, they have Departments with insurance companies and all sorts of Legal avenues a civilian does not have.
LEO is NOT going to pop off rubber bullets, unless a Superior said to load up and do so.
If he /she does not follow protocol, they are in a heap of serious trouble!
Rubber baby buggy bumpers are the only less lethal item most folks really need in the home - then still these don't work, as wonderful child will still run over your butt and it hurts like the dickens! - Mentor
LEO and other First Responders go toward serious situations.
Civilians are well advised to learn to avoid trouble, evade trouble if trouble shows up, and if cannot deal with trouble.
Stop the threat!
One would not use a Less Lethal Fire Extinguisher - a fire (threat) needs to be stopped now!
I did not say the fire had to be "extinguished" , I said "stopped".
One does everything they can to avoid fires in the home.
Prevention with electrical wiring up to code and maintained, not over loading circuits, not leaving the stove unattended while cooking, smoke detectors and other prudent steps.
Evade with practice fire drills from various areas of the home to deal with fires that may be in various parts of home, or on property.
Deal with it. One might have to snag a box of baking soda kept near the stove to deal with a grease fire, this allows them to snag the kitchen fire extinguisher - family is in evade mode.
Next up is getting the bigger fire extinguisher to allow one's self or others, to evade, while waiting for First Responders.
Snagging the garden hose, maybe neighbors snag theirs and dealing with fire until FD and others can arrive.
I do not want a Fire Dept to show up with Less Lethal water, axes , ladders, anything else.
I want the Threat stopped!
Home Defense is the same way.
Specialty ammunition has a place for First Responders, whether it be rubber axes for a FD person to learn correct use of, or LEO rubber bullets for crowd control.
These First Responders not only have training, and continued training, they have Departments with insurance companies and all sorts of Legal avenues a civilian does not have.
LEO is NOT going to pop off rubber bullets, unless a Superior said to load up and do so.
If he /she does not follow protocol, they are in a heap of serious trouble!
Rubber baby buggy bumpers are the only less lethal item most folks really need in the home - then still these don't work, as wonderful child will still run over your butt and it hurts like the dickens! - Mentor
Shooting at someone with less lethal rounds in a non-lethal confrontation is a sure way to land yourself in prison.
Shooting at someone with less lethal rounds in a lethal confrontation is a sure way to get yourself killed.
Its a lose/lose situation for us civilians. Avoid like the plague. Maybe they have a use in scaring off live stock than raid gardens/crops...
Shooting at someone with less lethal rounds in a lethal confrontation is a sure way to get yourself killed.
Its a lose/lose situation for us civilians. Avoid like the plague. Maybe they have a use in scaring off live stock than raid gardens/crops...
Okiecruffler
Member
The only reason for me to shoot someone is to make them stop. Nothing stops like death. Lead=Dead, Rubber=Clown Nose.
jmt1271
Member
I cant see any reason for LTL rounds for home defense. Maybe for shooting a neighbors dog that gets in your trash or something, but not defense. Thats a prescription for getting you or your family hurt. My $.02
Jeff F
Member
Only thing I've ever used the rubber buck shot and the rubber slugs for is rousting bears away from the house or trash cans. I'll use the real thing for home defense.
Waywatcher
Member
Yeah its probably decent for rabbit control or something similar if you're worried about lead in the garden.
Like others here though I'd use real shells in a real situation--copperplated lead 00 Buck is my choice.
Like others here though I'd use real shells in a real situation--copperplated lead 00 Buck is my choice.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Using a firearm with ANY load is deadly force. As a private citizen in a defensive situation in most jurisdictions, if you are justified in SHOOTING at all, you are justified in KILLING. The legal consequences are going to be the same no matter what load you use- if you shoot someone in a situation where you were not justified in shooting, you will likely be charged with ADW- assault with a deadly weapon- at minimum. Choosing a 'less lethal' load to do the shooting with won't be a help.
We used to joke that at typical room size distances, anything loaded into a shotgun shell would be lethal- even TicTacs. Of course that led to discussions of tactical TicTacs, and things went downhill from there. But the truth is that even a blank fired in a shotgun can be lethal- we had a LEO near here killed in training a few years ago when shot at contact range with a blank shotgun round.
lpl/nc
We used to joke that at typical room size distances, anything loaded into a shotgun shell would be lethal- even TicTacs. Of course that led to discussions of tactical TicTacs, and things went downhill from there. But the truth is that even a blank fired in a shotgun can be lethal- we had a LEO near here killed in training a few years ago when shot at contact range with a blank shotgun round.
lpl/nc
shoup dawg
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I took a shotgun course this weekend. The instructor teaches military, LEO, civilians, and is called upon regularly to testify and provide professional opinion in many legal cases.
I asked him about rubber rounds. He said two things. Number one, the courts treat it the same as if you used lethal (i.e., lead, copper, steel, etc.) Number two, they richochet more and he said you didn't want to get into that.
He actually told us that LEO's are supposed to fire into the ground and have it bounce towards crowds. They ARE NOT to be fired directly at people as they will maim and kill and he regaled us with a few stories about that.
So I can only presume that is where the "special training" came from. Learning how to understand it's unique trajectory, etc.
I'm not a proponent of killing and injuring others, but I will go into an HD situation with loaded lead vs. rubber because I hurt myself more with that than real lead due to the ricocheting, etc.
I asked him about rubber rounds. He said two things. Number one, the courts treat it the same as if you used lethal (i.e., lead, copper, steel, etc.) Number two, they richochet more and he said you didn't want to get into that.
He actually told us that LEO's are supposed to fire into the ground and have it bounce towards crowds. They ARE NOT to be fired directly at people as they will maim and kill and he regaled us with a few stories about that.
So I can only presume that is where the "special training" came from. Learning how to understand it's unique trajectory, etc.
I'm not a proponent of killing and injuring others, but I will go into an HD situation with loaded lead vs. rubber because I hurt myself more with that than real lead due to the ricocheting, etc.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Another problem here is that even though they are less lethal loads, they come with all of the same gun liability issues and constitute a use of lethal force, but without as much likelihood of actually stopping an attacker.
Katana8869
Member
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That pretty much sums it up. Rubber projectiles are best left in the hands of police departments and prison guards. If a civilian has to pull the trigger it is typically a kill or be killed situation.
If you just want to stun or disable an intruder inside a home or an apartment, use a baseball bat or other simular weapon (mine is a wooden training sword aka, boken). 1 swipe to the side of the knee followed by an overhead swipe to the collarbone or the point where the back of the neck meets the shoulders will typically get the job done. Repeat if needed.
Green Lantern
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Great thread, with the above very important lesson!
So guess I need to pick up a solid wooden boken to go with the pair of foam ones I was going to get to spar with my nephews. As I imagine that if you're in a situation where you can't use even a "less" lethal load, you probably can't use a real katana either.
Ah well, my Scottish accent is crap anyway. "I am Duncan MacLeod of the clan MacLeod...."
Hm, seriously, something to think about - a VIABLE nonlethal weapon alternative for times when deadly force isn't justified. I have OC. I have assorted kubotans ("improvised" and otherwise), but don't really feature getting up close and personal without lots of hands-on training - and really not even then if I can help it!
So, uh, IF someone bought into the hype of rubber buckshot, and now wanted to shoot it up and get rid of it (as opposed to letting it take up space and collect dust) - what would be a good target/backstop to use to avoid ricochet???
I'm thinking the hill up above Dad's house....but there are trees around there which could pose a problem...
If things have deteriorated to the point of Jon & Jan Q. Private-Citizen having to present a weapon, said weapon should not be sending rubber down range.
I can see SOME utility for the rubber stuff....Scene Commander says disperse the rioting corwd, training situations, perhaps in moving wild animals/livestock out of undesired areas...but that is it.
I can see SOME utility for the rubber stuff....Scene Commander says disperse the rioting corwd, training situations, perhaps in moving wild animals/livestock out of undesired areas...but that is it.
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