Ruger Mini 14: Good AR alternative?

[ugaarguy]

There is no reason to stoop to entry level junk when one can purchase a quality rifle for less unless the stated goal was to just own an AR.

So the M&P15 Sport is junk? Palmetto State Armory's $419 FN barreled uppers (add a $250 complete lower) are junk? I'll put my Sport up against any Mini, any day.


Back when Mini's were $500 new, DPMS were $700+, Bushmasters were $900+, and Colts were well over $1k, and Saigas weren't being imported then the Minis were a good value. Now, there are darn good ARs for the same price as Minis. Minis are great if you want a more traditional look, and traditional handling. Minis have to compete on features now: They can no longer compete on value.

You can also get a Saiga (unconverted) in .223 or 7.62x39 for $350 from a handful of online dealers. They aren't as pretty as a Mini, and they ain't made here, but darn the price is hard to beat.

 

[benzy2]

I have a serious question for the original poster. If you are having trouble affording the rifle itself, how do you plan to afford ammo for it? To me, I'd want to shoot the rifle I buy as much as possible. Not everyone can afford loads of .223 ammo. It's a shame how many rifles are bought because they seem cool only to not get shot more than a couple hundred rounds because there is no budget for ammo. If it were me, and I was on a budget, I'd look for a fun .22lr in the price range and be able to actually use the firearm a lot.

X-Rap, my experience has been that the Mini was easier for me to manipulate inside the cab of my little Toyota 4WD. Mostly on account of no hang-down magazine to snag on something during a quick grab.

That's a bit of BS if I've ever heard it. Not every Mini magazine is short and not every AR magazine is long. They make 5 and 10 round AR mags that hardly stick out of the magwell, 20 rounders not being much longer yet. The Mini 14 30 round magazine is practically the same size as AR magazines. If you want to argue the pistol grip is an issue, I can't really debate that. To say that an AR handles worse because of the magazine length seems a bit far fetched.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Well the Mini 14 is good for scaring what you're trying to hit with it.

 

[35 Whelen]

That's a bit of BS if I've ever heard it.

Easy there Turbo. Can't argue with a tape measure:

AR is about 9 inches from pistol grip to carry handle and the Mini is about 4 inches from guard to the top of the rear sight.

I'm not for or against either, but the AR is over twice as tall as the Mini unless you put one of those 1529 round magazines in your Mini.

35W

 

[benzy2]

Easy there Turbo. Can't argue with a tape measure:

Go read both his comments and mine again. I even went on to agree about the pistol grip that you want to quote, though it wasn't mentioned in his post. The claim was that mag length was the problem.

 

[smle41]

I have to agree with Art, in that the Mini is sleeker and 'points' better, at least for me, than the AR does. My experiences with M16s, ARs and M4s have been mixed in terms of reliability, while my (less) experiences with Mini-14s is that they were utterly reliable whether clean, dirty, wet or dry. Also, I have had positive experiences with the accuracy of older Minis, but, I certainly have not met all of them, and I have come to believe there are more and less accurate guns of all types.
Ruger factory magazines are expensive, but there are inexpensive magazines of dubious quality for both guns (personal note, I do like the new 'anti-tilt' M4 magazines, but they still can tilt and 'jam', just not as badly as the green and black followers), so if one wants quality magazines, one will have to pay for them either way.
I've owned Bushmaster and S&W ARs and both could malfunction in feeding, extracting, ejecting, were fairly finicky about ammo, and more maintenance intensive. Years ago, I had an inexpensive, used Mini that was plenty accurate for field use; I shot any .223 or 5.56 out of it, the Ruger magazines seemed to be of excellent quality (much better than surplus M16), and easier to maintain (locking lug recesses, less of them, and easier to reach in the receiver, etc)
Plus, there is, for some, if not all, the 'politically correct' factor of the wood stock, no pistol grip, not an 'eeevil black rifle' factor.
Get what feels good to you and what you are comfortable with, what you enjoy. Even supposing that the mini is not as mechanically accurate, if you enjoy shooting it, enjoy it. I have come to love my Marlin 39, even though it may not be as mechanically accurate as a match target gun, and am better with it than I am with my old CZ and Ruger .22s, likely just because it is so fun I shoot it more. The best shot in our neighborhood is a fellow with some ancient Springfield semi-auto that you push a button in and it becomes a bolt-action gun, ancient, worn, not a 'match gun', but he is great with that thing since he had it from his childhood and still shoots it weekly.
So, get what feels better in your hand, on your shoulder, points better or handles better or (even) looks better to you, for you. And, shoot it. If you decide one way or another, you can always 're-choose' and maybe 're-choose' again.
Have fun..

 

[ugaarguy]

I've owned Bushmaster and S&W ARs and both could malfunction in feeding, extracting, ejecting, were fairly finicky about ammo, and more maintenance intensive.

I'm not surprised to read that about a Bushmaster. However, was your S&W bbl. marked "5.56 Nato" or "5.56 NATO"? That's a very important distinction.

 

[smle41]

I cannot recall.. but, out of curiosity, what is the difference between the 5.56 "North Atlantic Treaty Organisation", and the 5.56 "North 'atlantic treaty organisation' " Is this something S&W does to differentiate it's weapons? I know there is a difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 'NATO'.
Gunnery is an exacting art, to be sure.
Still, for those that do not want to laboriously clean all those little locking lug recesses from all the dirty gas that went right back into the chamber, (i.e., many shooters who are more shooters than maintainers), the mini should not be overlooked...

 

[ugaarguy]

smle, 5.56 Nato marked bbl indicates early M&P15 built from outsourced components, while 5.56 NATO marked bbl indicates an in house manufactured M&P15. Here's a link to where I explained it in further detail earlier this week on THR - http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7515171&postcount=16. The very early M&P15s with outsourced parts weren't up to the standard that the in house built M&P15s are. If you feel like spending $5 for a PDF back issue, you can read Pat Rogers' article "A Tale of Three Smiths" in the May 2008 issue of SWAT Magazine. His experience with an outsourced gun (tight mag well, not the best reliability) vs. the in house built guns (run like a champ) mirrors what I saw when I was in gun retail during that period. There was a vast jump in quality when S&W brought the components in house.

Still, for those that do not want to laboriously clean all those little locking lug recesses from all the dirty gas that went right back into the chamber,

That sounds like worn or out of spec gas rings to me. Maybe even a gas key that wasn't properly installed. An in spec AR should keep the great majority of the gasses (and therefor the carbon fouling) behind the gas rings at the back of the bolt & in the rear of the carrier. It should run when filthy if moderately to heavily lubed.

 

[smle41]

Still, with as many things that can 'go wrong' on an AR / M16, I will support the OP's idea that the Mini is a good, viable "AR" alternative. My issue M4 has barely seen a couple hundred rounds (that I know of, it supposedly came straight from the factory), as well as many M16s and ARs that I have had to shoot and clean, all ended up with much carbon fouling all over the chamber, receses, firing pin, key, lugs, bolt face, etc. I think that may be more of a function of the 'direct gas impingement' than 'worn' or 'out of spec' rings.. it is just design, likely little more nor little less.
By the way, thank you very much for the information.. that the marking is more of an identifier for S&W than some cartridge variation I did not know about..
For those that don't want to have to worry about whether their gas key ('carrier key') or three little rings are tweaked, and just want a gun that is easier to work with, I think the Mini is very user-friendly indeed. I cannot recall the bolt face or lugs getting quite so messy on the Mini, and it's dual lugs are easier to 'get at' with the thumbnail in a rag, etc.
I have come to love my M1 carbine because, in my opinion, it is easy to maintain (everything that needs cleaning is pretty easy to get to), handy, light, points well for me. I do not mean to get off-topic, at least too far, but couldn't we consider the M1 carbine a viable "AR alternative"? I do not know how it would be for 'popping off varmints', but, to me, my M1 is utterly reliable, user friendly and as accurate as a person might want in the field. I suppose I ought to ask what their 'field conditions' consist of? I live in forested mountains, so my considerations may be different from those who live in the open plains..
So, I urge the OP to give it it a try and learn from himself, with many rounds and many hours afield. Take a friend, too, and have fun making the world safe from dangerous tin cans with a Mini, learn it's magazine release (to me, pretty positive and easy and not easily 'accidentally released', and shoulder it, learn it, and learn what you like and not like...
...In full disclosure, I used to work part-time in a little gun store and I encouraged people to try everything from Mosin-Nagants to M1As and Arisakas to Colts, as the knowledge gained is priceless and the learning is fun.
I am glad to have learned the things I have and that others are still kind enough to teach me more.
Thank you...

 

[ugaarguy]

I cannot recall the bolt face or lugs getting quite so messy on the Mini,

I'm beginning to think much of this has to do with the open receiver, Garand based, design. Not so much piston or DI, but simply open receiver. Though I've fired AKs several times, I recently bought my first one. The majority of the gunk was on the front of the piston, but the bolt still got quite dirty. I don't remember my Garand bolt ever getting near that dirty. I believe the Garand based designs just let the gunk float off into the air, while the enclosed receiver designs enclose the gasses - and gunk - in the action.

 

[Cop Bob]

I'm beginning to think much of this has to do with the open receiver, Garand based, design. Not so much piston or DI, but simply open receiver. Though I've fired AKs several times, I recently bought my first one. The majority of the gunk was on the front of the piston, but the bolt still got quite dirty. I don't remember my Garand bolt ever getting near that dirty. I believe the Garand based designs just let the gunk float off into the air, while the enclosed receiver designs enclose the gasses - and gunk - in the action.

Yup... Think your onto something there....

As stated, I own both types, multiples of each.. have and do run both Mini's and AR's

AR's can be tack drivers.. there are a few things that can go wrong with them, the gas rings come to mind.. and they are a little more effort to clean... a few more minutes.. But who cares...

The Mini's, Simple to break down, easy to reassemble.. insides tend to run a little cleaner as stated... out dated design? Yeah, kinda like that junker 1911 huh? It is a great and well proven design...Done..

Ease of handling, To me the mini is a touch better for me personally for instinctive point shooting... it is a traditional form or shape.. it seems to go where I point it... for me... I really like it..

Inside a vehicle... FOR ME... the mini is balanced better. I have one that the barrel is cut to 16" with the flash hider, and it wheels around inside a patrol car or my truck just fine.... The AR, with it's collapsible stock is close, but a bit front heavy.. to me, the balance is a bit off..

Fact... Either gun will serve you well.. the both shoot the same cartridge, so the only real factors are, Ergonomics.. how does the gun fit you, does it point well, and come into battery for you the way YOU like it to... short.. DOES IT FEEL RIGHT TO YOU...

Accuracy, just how much to you need for its intended purpose.. If you need at 1MOA gun, then the AR is the place to start.. If you are looking for a dependable duty, ranch, truck, defense gun.. then either gun will serve you well..

Maintaince and upkeep, meh.. both are pretty close actually, with ME giving a slight edge to the Mini...(had one since the month they came to market, never replaced a gas ring, or for that matter anything on any of my three.) The are a bit easier to clean, and have a tendency to run a tad cleaner.. My AR's are fine guns, and shoot well, I love them... but then again, I love the Sharps too...

The real question here is what do YOU like..... no one will fault you for choosing either way ... See It's kinda like the guy who walks into the brothel, and he is, well... under-endowed... when the deal is struck and he and the lady of his choice retire to a room, he drops his pants and his "Date" begins to point and chuckle.. His response is.."Hey what are you laughing at?" At this his date points at him and responds with "Who do you think you are going to make happy with that?" .. His answer was simple..."ME !"

And that is who you need to satisfy sir... either way you will be happy...

 

[benEzra]

If it were me, and I was on a budget, I'd look for a fun .22lr in the price range and be able to actually use the firearm a lot.

For a centerfire, .223 is pretty cheap to shoot compared to a lot of centerfires. I shoot cheap Tula steel-case from Wallyworld in my AR (under $5/box). It's not as cheap as .22LR, certainly but it's not all that bad.

for those that do not want to laboriously clean all those little locking lug recesses from all the dirty gas that went right back into the chamber,

Unless your gas rings are defective, the gas is coming out of the chamber, not going in from the gas system. An AR's gas system feeds gas into the piston chamber behind the gas rings, and from there it is vented outside the receiver via the gas vent holes in the bolt carrier (and the bolt is still closed when that happens).

Operating gas is not dumped into the chamber or receiver in the AR, and there's not a lot of residual blow-by from the gas tube after the bolt opens either unless you're running a sound suppressor.

I shoot cheap Tula steel-case in matches for cost reasons; the only place I see much residue after a hundred rounds or so is on the tail of the bolt, and that's pretty much self-limiting.

I cannot recall the bolt face or lugs getting quite so messy on the Mini,

If I remember correctly, the mini has a 2-lug bolt, and the mini's lugs are further from the chamber than an AR's lugs. The closer the lugs are to the chamber, the smokier they'll get from case blow-by during ejection, and the same amount of goo would be less noticeable in those huge bolt recesses anyway, I'd think.

Even so, unless the gun is run bone dry, powder residue isn't really an issue until you go thousands of rounds between cleanings, and that's true of both the mini and the AR.

Here's an entry-level Model 1 Sales AR after fourteen thousand rounds of dirty Wolf steel-case, without cleaning; the only maintenance was occasional lubrication to keep things wet. Note that the bolt lugs aren't too bad; once goo builds up to a certain thickness, it tends to flow out of the way, unless you let it get dry and turn to concrete.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/

 

[FlyinBryan]

wonder what that guys house looks like?

 

[Ignition Override]

Cop Bob:
I handled the Mini 14 of a patrolman in eastern AR, and the rifle has either a red dot sight or some other fancy type.

The totally unexpected shootout and murders of those two West Memphis patrolmen by rabid anti-govt types happened not too far from here.
The officers might only have had a shotgun- out of reach when the attackers suddenly fired many rds. through the windshields or doors- and their attackers were very proficient with the AK clone.

I can't second guess what a patrolman might want or need, but my choice could be whichever semi-auto allows a guy to shoot thorough an attacker's car windows and doors, considering one's skill level, muzzle rise and other factors.
Maybe a primary risk is whether an LEO can even leave cover in order to try to reach the rifle?

 

[kfgk14]

If you want to plink, buy an SKS or an AK. They'll shoot as accurate as a Mini, and they'll be cheaper up front, cheaper ammo, reliable, etc.
That's my view. Don't waste your time with the Mini, for a the price you could just get two SKS's.
If you want accurate, buy an AR. If you want customize-able, buy an AR. Put the money in for a good one.

 

[Davek1977]

smle4:

couldn't we consider the M1 carbine a viable "AR alternative"?

I don't think so. The .30 carbine round, performs more like a .357 handgun round than a rifle round like the 5.56. The AR has it beat on range, adapability, overall usefulness of the caliber chambered, etc. Also, while some consider it questionable, the .223 can be used to take deer sized game humanely. most states outright prohibit the .30 carbine round from being used legally on big game. I really can't think of anything aside from size where the M1 carbine is actually equal to or better than the AR. Too, ammo supplies of 5.56/.223 are widely availble. While 30 carbine ammo isn't "hard" to find, its not one of the dozen or so calibers most big box stores sell, nor are you likely to find it in amny ma and pa shops. The .20 carbine is what is....buit what it isn't is a viable alternative for most people looking at an AR for their needs.

 

[Kendal Black]

I prefer the ergos of the Ruger Mini. Unlike the AR or the M, the charging handle is in a sensible location and connected to the innards, so if perchance you need a bit of forward assist, assistance is in a sensible place.

The Garand safety is better if it is dark, you are scared, and everyone is in a hurry. If it will not pull, you push. If it still won't, you pull the handle. If that won't work you push the handle. It's all very logical and consistent.

As of the 580-rifles Ruger has been trying to make this work. Now the complaint is a bad one is a three inch rifle. Used to be, that was the lucky strike.

You can also buy factory magazines; whatever Wm. Sr. said about that, he is gone now.

 

[ugaarguy]

It's all very logical and consistent.

SPORTS
Slap - the mag base
Pull - the charging handle
Observe - the chamber
Release - the charging handle
Tap - the forward assist
Squeeze - the trigger
It works with AR-15s just as well as it works with M16s/M4s. It's pretty logical to me. But if you like the Mini better, you like it better.

You can also buy factory magazines; whatever Wm. Sr. said about that, he is gone now.

Ohh yeah, they're only 2-3 times the price of good AR mags now, instead of 4-5 times the price when they were supposed to be restricted to MIL/LE/GOV.

 

[Kendal Black]

SPORTS
Slap - the mag base
Pull - the charging handle
Observe - the chamber
Release - the charging handle
Tap - the forward assist
Squeeze - the trigger
It works with AR-15s just as well as it works with M16s/M4s. It's pretty logical to me. But if you like the Mini better, you like it better.

Ohh yeah, they're only 2-3 times the price of good AR mags now, instead of 4-5 times the price when they were supposed to be restricted to MIL/LE/GOV.

I admit that is the best first try if an M16 fails. There is a further drill if it not only fails but furthers its failure, but I am sure everyone knows all about it.

On the Mini (or the M14): Yank back the bolt, lock it if you like, or else hold it, remove the magazine, shove a finger down the well, extract your digit and cycle the bolt three times. Reload (different magazine) & try again.

This is getting more esoteric than the OP wanted. He wanted to know if he should have an AR-15 or a Mini, and my answer is clearly an unequivocal YES.

He probably didn't want to know about stoppages in the dark. My apologies.

 

[ugaarguy]

It's all good Kendall. I ran off on the tangent too. It defies my own logic in this thread, but the local cop shop has a bunch of Police trade in Mini-14 GBs; and for some reason I keep being tempted by them.

 

[Cop Bob]

Cop Bob:
I handled the Mini 14 of a patrolman in eastern AR, and the rifle has either a red dot sight or some other fancy type.

The totally unexpected shootout and murders of those two West Memphis patrolmen by rabid anti-govt types happened not too far from here.
The officers might only have had a shotgun- out of reach when the attackers suddenly fired many rds. through the windshields or doors- and their attackers were very proficient with the AK clone.

I'm can't second guess what a patrolman might want or need, but my choice could be whichever semi-auto allows a guy to shoot thorough an attacker's car windows and doors, considering one's skill level, muzzle rise and other factors.
Maybe a primary risk is whether an LEO can even leave cover in order to try to reach the rifle?

One of the things that I loved about carrying my Mini in a patrol car, was the fact that it was a cheap burch stock, if I scratched it, so what.. I bought it to beat it up.. I had one cut down to just 16" from the flash hider to the face of the closed bolt.. it was a short as I could legally make it. As a result, I could wedge it between the seats, or depending upon the car, seat and door post.. only draw back was the magazine length.. sometimes it just got in the way.. But with the AR, there was the Grip, the mag well and the Mag that protruded... The only thing that laid flat and smooth and stayed out of the way was my 870.. But the important thing to me is I should be able to access it inside a closed car, and bring it to bear on a threat from either side if needed, and be able to safely exit the vehicle, with control of the weapon... this is something that is practiced.. unfortunately by too few...

I vehicles without consoles, or those with BENCH seats... I would lay the weapon over the hump, with magazine under the seat if there was room. I found that I could slide the weapon out, underhand as as I was exiting the vehicle, and be in a point shoulder ready position quickly, using the door and front of vehicle for cover.

As far as being able to access it when TSHTF, well, you try and keep it accessible, but not where anyone can reach in and grab it.. in other words, keep your car locked.. Try and listen to the little hairs on the back of your neck.. when they start to stand up, pay attention... keep all your radars up and running all the time when your arriving somewhere.. and if you think your gonna need it.. what for the rest of the troops to arrive, and take it with you... the fastest draw I have ever seen, is to already have it in your hand... Cover is a primary concern, I swear I have seen 300 lb policemen, properly motivated by the sound of gunfire, jump UNDER a car, and not get a spot of grease on em, or one use a 5" sapling tree for cover, with 8 inches of butt and belly on either side, because it is all they could get too..

 

[rbernie]

Ohh yeah, they're only 2-3 times the price of good AR mags now, instead of 4-5 times the price when they were supposed to be restricted to MIL/LE/GOV.

A USGI 30rd AR magazine is $10, a 30rd PMAG is $14, a 20rd PMAG is $13, and a steel factory Mini14 20rd magazine is $29.

Yes, a Ruger mag is twice as expensive as a PMAG and three times the cost of a USGI magazine. But its price is in line with (or less than) other non-surplus magazines of similar manufacture and lineage. Price an AR10 magazine lately?

I have had excellent luck with the current ProMag 20rd and 30rd magazines, and can usually get them for about $20/each.

 

[Ignition Override]

Cop Bob:
That's interesting.

As for ARs, the .223 round is usually the only round being discussed.

Do some patrolmen carry an AR-10 (.308) or a Mini 30, in order to have ammo with the same penetrating force as an 'AK 47' clone?

 

[wow6599]

Mini's are a good $300 gun. If you can find one at that price and don't mind paying $50 each for magazines and find 3" groups acceptable they are for you.

Uninformed. Period.
I have both, but shoot my Mini better than my AR. My Mini-14 (2008 NRA 16") will shoot 1-2 MOA all day long. The Ruger Mini-14 (and 30) bashing is done by folks who don't care to listen, or look, to the people that have the 580s and up. It's not 1984 anymore, and it ain't your daddy's Mini. Things change, and not always for the worse.

BTW, here are some $50 factory mags you were speaking of - http://www.cdnninvestments.com/rumi14220blm.html