peacebutready
Member
I like the idea of handiness, having iron sights, having both scout and regular scopes to put on at will, and long range accuracy FOR a non-dedicated tactical rifle.
Ruger/Savage Scout models' velocity difference; 5-8 hundred yard groups
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peacebutready
Member
Right now and in the near/intermediate future skill will be my determining factor. I can always trade in and/or buy a long heavy barrel model in the future.
I would suggest something cheaper to shoot while you learn. The .223 is great for that.
PedalBiker
Member
The Hodgdon manual has pistol data for loads of rifle cartridges in 14" Contender barrels.
Mostly, the powders that give best velocity in 24" barrels give the best velocity in the short handgun barrels.
The data is quite interesting. Putting a .30-06 into a 14" barrel pretty much gives you a really loud, but handy 300 Savage.
I cut back a .260 barrel to 19". It did make a handy carbine. Overall, I think it was a compromise not worth making. I put the 22" 243 barrel back on, and it may be there a while. Even for short range shots where the velocity doesn't matter the extra barrel length makes for easier offhand shots and less muzzle blast.
Mostly, the powders that give best velocity in 24" barrels give the best velocity in the short handgun barrels.
The data is quite interesting. Putting a .30-06 into a 14" barrel pretty much gives you a really loud, but handy 300 Savage.
I cut back a .260 barrel to 19". It did make a handy carbine. Overall, I think it was a compromise not worth making. I put the 22" 243 barrel back on, and it may be there a while. Even for short range shots where the velocity doesn't matter the extra barrel length makes for easier offhand shots and less muzzle blast.
And the reason for this is outlined in one of my previous posts. Powder charge and suitability is determined by peak pressure which occurs before the bullet has traveled more than 2-3" down the barrel regardless of powder used within the suitable range.
Welding Rod
Member
Helotaxi - That was an awesome post, thanks.
BTW - The basic concepts you are talking about were also explained to me by a tech at Hodgdon a while back when I was asking for powder recommendations for different guns (barrel lengths), bullet weights, and cartridges.
JustsayMo
Member
Here is some actual chronograph results from my Ruger Gunsite Scout;
165 grain Hornady Interlock JSP
The Hodgdon Published Data MAX for IMR 3031 averages 2573 fps. (Fed brass, Winchester Primers) This is the most accurate jacketed bullet load in my GSR. My best 100 yard group with it is 13/16"
The Hodgdon Published Data Max for Varget averages 2510 fps.
The Hodgdon Published Data Max for IMR 4064 averages 2508 fps.
Both the Varget and 4064 loads produce excellent accuracy.
IMR 4350 which is excellent in all of my 30-06s was only OK in the GSR. The max velocity achieved was 2442 fps with this powder (too slow for the short barrel)
I haven't tested W748 yet but know of other GSR owners getting excellent results with. The same is true of IMR 4895.
WRB posted in another forum (but I think he is a member here too) about his success in the silhouette game with his GSR. The rams are set at 500 Meters and he has no problem reaching them or knocking them down with a 147 grain recycled bullet over IMR4895 going 2780 fps (chronographed). Earlier this month he came within on target of winning the match against guys with rifles specifically set up for the game. Factory Federal ammo gets 2710 fps out of his.
Comparatively the most accurate loads in my other 308 rifles for 165 grain bullets are all in that 2550-2600 fps range. Though capable of higher velocities, they the accuracy degrades rapidly beyond that.
One other advantage I've found with the Ruger is that I don't have let the barrel cool down between shots to get good groups. My Remingtons and CZ rifles are all capable of great accuracy if the barrels are allowed to cool between shots.
165 grain Hornady Interlock JSP
The Hodgdon Published Data MAX for IMR 3031 averages 2573 fps. (Fed brass, Winchester Primers) This is the most accurate jacketed bullet load in my GSR. My best 100 yard group with it is 13/16"
The Hodgdon Published Data Max for Varget averages 2510 fps.
The Hodgdon Published Data Max for IMR 4064 averages 2508 fps.
Both the Varget and 4064 loads produce excellent accuracy.
IMR 4350 which is excellent in all of my 30-06s was only OK in the GSR. The max velocity achieved was 2442 fps with this powder (too slow for the short barrel)
I haven't tested W748 yet but know of other GSR owners getting excellent results with. The same is true of IMR 4895.
WRB posted in another forum (but I think he is a member here too) about his success in the silhouette game with his GSR. The rams are set at 500 Meters and he has no problem reaching them or knocking them down with a 147 grain recycled bullet over IMR4895 going 2780 fps (chronographed). Earlier this month he came within on target of winning the match against guys with rifles specifically set up for the game. Factory Federal ammo gets 2710 fps out of his.
Comparatively the most accurate loads in my other 308 rifles for 165 grain bullets are all in that 2550-2600 fps range. Though capable of higher velocities, they the accuracy degrades rapidly beyond that.
One other advantage I've found with the Ruger is that I don't have let the barrel cool down between shots to get good groups. My Remingtons and CZ rifles are all capable of great accuracy if the barrels are allowed to cool between shots.
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Hummer70
Member
I had a Savage Scout in 7/08 and it could be extremely accurate with a bipod installed using 150 gr. Sierra MKs. I have 600 yard range on my place and I was amazed that the pencil thin barrel did not start to walk when barrel got hot. It had a good trigger as well.
With my rifle it was absolutely critical that no external force be applied to the stock with the bipod in place. In short I had to sandbag the rear and have the cross hairs directly on the target at 600. Then reach up and grip it very gently and squeeze the round off and it would be there every time. If I tried to man handle it in the slightest it would give a wild shot. Bottom line if you treat it well it will treat you well. My buddy wanted it badly and it went to New York state with him.
The Ruger GSR could be capable of shooting well at 600. I had a All Weather 77MKII in 260 a couple years ago and it shot horizontal groups at 300 yards. The plastic stock was flimsy so I changed it to a wood stock and bedded it and it did much better.
I checked the locking lugs and only bottom lug was contacting so I lapped the bottom lug till the top contacted and it then started shooting round groups. The trigger pull was not that great and it was cured with a Timney adjustable trigger from Brownell's and was then decent. I had another friend who wanted it after I got it shooting well and it now has a new home.
The GSR has a laminated stock so chances are excellent it will be much better. I would go ahead and get a Timney trigger for it though. It has adjustable buttstock as well which gives it a big plus in my book as I like 12" stocks.
Get Uncle Mikes MILSPEC sling swivels and a M1 cotton sling and you are good to go. clean it often like every 12 rounds while barrel is warm and you should get maybe 5000 rounds on it with 150 to 155 gr. Match bullets. Add a Harris 6-9" tilting bipod and you should be good to go to long range. The problem will be getting a scope that will give you that much elevation as you don't want to crank a lot of elevation on a internally adjustable scopes.
Get Burris Signature Zee Rings with spacer kit. With the scope set in the middle of its adjustment range change the Zee Rings spacers so that you hit about 8" high at 50 yards. This should give you on paper at 600 and you will have enough elevation to dial up to 800 and down to 300. For the longer ranges if you can find an intermediate eye relief scope in like 2-7X you might consider it as at the longer ranges the ability to magnify the target will be beneficial.
If you crank scope down to 300 for POA/POI you can hold 4" low at 100, 6" low at 200 and 12" high at 400 and get hits. Make sure to get a scope with a lifetime warranty as the internal adjustments can give problems. It would also be beneficial to get target knobs on it.
I would probably use VV N140 or VV N150 and Wolf primers for long range work.
With my rifle it was absolutely critical that no external force be applied to the stock with the bipod in place. In short I had to sandbag the rear and have the cross hairs directly on the target at 600. Then reach up and grip it very gently and squeeze the round off and it would be there every time. If I tried to man handle it in the slightest it would give a wild shot. Bottom line if you treat it well it will treat you well. My buddy wanted it badly and it went to New York state with him.
The Ruger GSR could be capable of shooting well at 600. I had a All Weather 77MKII in 260 a couple years ago and it shot horizontal groups at 300 yards. The plastic stock was flimsy so I changed it to a wood stock and bedded it and it did much better.
I checked the locking lugs and only bottom lug was contacting so I lapped the bottom lug till the top contacted and it then started shooting round groups. The trigger pull was not that great and it was cured with a Timney adjustable trigger from Brownell's and was then decent. I had another friend who wanted it after I got it shooting well and it now has a new home.
The GSR has a laminated stock so chances are excellent it will be much better. I would go ahead and get a Timney trigger for it though. It has adjustable buttstock as well which gives it a big plus in my book as I like 12" stocks.
Get Uncle Mikes MILSPEC sling swivels and a M1 cotton sling and you are good to go. clean it often like every 12 rounds while barrel is warm and you should get maybe 5000 rounds on it with 150 to 155 gr. Match bullets. Add a Harris 6-9" tilting bipod and you should be good to go to long range. The problem will be getting a scope that will give you that much elevation as you don't want to crank a lot of elevation on a internally adjustable scopes.
Get Burris Signature Zee Rings with spacer kit. With the scope set in the middle of its adjustment range change the Zee Rings spacers so that you hit about 8" high at 50 yards. This should give you on paper at 600 and you will have enough elevation to dial up to 800 and down to 300. For the longer ranges if you can find an intermediate eye relief scope in like 2-7X you might consider it as at the longer ranges the ability to magnify the target will be beneficial.
If you crank scope down to 300 for POA/POI you can hold 4" low at 100, 6" low at 200 and 12" high at 400 and get hits. Make sure to get a scope with a lifetime warranty as the internal adjustments can give problems. It would also be beneficial to get target knobs on it.
I would probably use VV N140 or VV N150 and Wolf primers for long range work.
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No, the powder is too slow for the .308. The short barrel is irrelevant to the powder selection. Read my previous posts.
JustsayMo
Member
Either way, we came to the same conclusion. There are better powders for 308.
With a quality scope made for dialing elevation, this is a total non issue. From a 100yd zero, you only need 25MOA of elevation to get a 155gn AMax to 800 yds. Most any decent long range scope will have that. If the scope has quality internals, dialing back and forth won't hurt it at all. Tactical shooters do it all the time and many of them have scopes that are years old and have been dialed back and forth hundreds if not thousands of times.
Bull Hockey
The velocity difference between a 20 inch and a 16.5 inch is going to roughly be 100 fps difference wether at the muzzle or at 400 yards, a deer will not be able to tell the difference. Most will never make a 400 yard shot on game, and if they do they should probably hone their hunting skills, and attempt to get closer to the game, most my deer and other game is killed at 30 yards or less, stick and string is just way more sporting!
The velocity difference between a 20 inch and a 16.5 inch is going to roughly be 100 fps difference wether at the muzzle or at 400 yards, a deer will not be able to tell the difference. Most will never make a 400 yard shot on game, and if they do they should probably hone their hunting skills, and attempt to get closer to the game, most my deer and other game is killed at 30 yards or less, stick and string is just way more sporting!
TwoWheelFiend
Member
I've been loading Sierra 150gr sp with IMR3031 behind it. Seems to be a good mix so far.
peacebutready
Member
Thanks
Thank you all for commenting.
I'm sorry I took so long to acknowledge.
Thank you all for commenting.
I'm sorry I took so long to acknowledge.
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