Russia / China joint exercises

[Faithless]

Russia and China to Hold Joint Maneuvers

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV
Associated Press Writer
December 27, 2004, 6:58 PM EST

MOSCOW - Once-bitter rivals Russia and China will hold a massive joint military exercise on Chinese territory next year involving submarines and possibly strategic bombers, Russia's defense minister said Monday as the two nations move to bolster already burgeoning military ties. Many observers saw the announcement as Russia's response to a spat with the United States and other Western nations over the disputed election in Ukraine, Russia's neighbor, where the Kremlin-backed candidate trailed a pro-Western politician in near-final results.

"For the first time in history, we have agreed to hold quite a large military exercise together with China on Chinese territory in the second half of the year," Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said at a Cabinet session chaired by President Vladimir Putin, according to the ITAR-Tass news agency. "The Russian side will not bring big numbers of servicemen, but mostly state-of-the art weapons -- navy, air, long-range aviation, submarines -- to practice interaction with China in different forms of military maneuvers."

After decades of rivalry, Moscow and Beijing have developed what they call a strategic partnership since the Soviet collapse. China has become the No. 1 customer for Russia's struggling defense industry, purchasing billions of dollars worth of fighters, missiles, submarines and destroyers.

Officials with Russia's state arms-trading company, Rosoboronexport, said last week that China was expected to sign new contracts next year to purchase Russia's most advanced fighter jets. Both nations frequently have spoken about their adherence to a "multipolar world," a term that refers to their opposition to a perceived U.S. domination in global affairs.

Putin and other Russian officials allege that the United States improperly influenced Ukraine's elections by funding democracy-building organizations. A Nov. 21 ballot in which the pro-Kremlin candidate was declared the winner was later annulled after allegations of widespread fraud and amid massive public protests. Russia staunchly backed Ukraine Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych in the presidential contest, fearing that his rival, Viktor Yushchenko, would bring the nation closer to the West and away from the Russian orbit. Yushchenko was leading comfortably late Monday with nearly all the results counted.

Some observers have speculated that Russia could respond to the falling out with the West over Ukraine's presidential election by trying to forge a closer partnership with China and India, the second-biggest customer of Russia's military industrial complex. During his visit to India earlier this month, Putin pushed for a trilateral summit with leaders of India and China and assailed U.S. "dictatorship of international affairs."

Andrei Piontkovsky, the head of the Center for Strategic Studies, said Putin wanted to vent his anger at the West by staging the Russian-Chinese military exercise. Fyodor Lukyanov, the editor of Russia in Global Affairs Magazine, also described the maneuvers as a gesture aimed at the West. "It's a response to a series of political defeats Russia has suffered, most recently in Ukraine," Lukyanov told The Associated Press. "It's a reminder that Russia is still a great military power."

Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press

Cited from

 

[Standing Wolf]

Many observers saw the announcement as Russia's response to a spat with the United States and other Western nations over the disputed election in Ukraine, Russia's neighbor, where the Kremlin-backed candidate trailed a pro-Western politician in near-final results.

Okay. Fine. Take your football and go play with some other kids. We'll struggle along without you.

 

[carebear]

That's so scary. That Russia might share their top of the line, 1st-gen stealth aircraft and late '80's tank tech with China.

We're actually fielding, what, 3rd gen stuff? And our top of the line '70's aircraft and tanks are STILL equal to or better than their newest.

Excuse me while I quake in my boots and hold my MOAB for comfort.

Oh, somebody wake me when they get something resembling an intercontinental sealift capability.

 

[River Wraith]

Screw them both. Maybe they can crash their fancy 70s style equipment into each other.

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

Don't get me wrong, as a steely eyed hunter/killer of the deep, a US Navy Submariner with test depth ice water in my veins, I would put our gear up aganst that of anyone in the world and put a full paycheck on us! However I think it is niave to use this blind eliteism aganst ALL the militaries of the world.

It is dangerous to assume that, China's armed forces in this discusson, are entirely populated by the bowing, bowl cut idiots of old movies, driving ancient Soviet hardware. Their Type 98 tank is a totaly modern MBT with performance aimed at competing head on with our Abrams. here In fact they are quietly building up and modernizing their entire military in an effort to become the new Soviet Union, although I can say that their Navy leaves alot to be desired and there's not a sub in their fleet which can realisticly stand aganst even a 2nd flight 688 much less a Seawolf or Virginia class!

 

[carebear]

I wasn't disparaging the individual soldier or even their leadership. Although our guys are better trained, better led and better equipped AND come from a military background that just doesn't lose wars against Eastern opponents.

I was more remarking that those new MBT's can do donuts in the plains of the Yangtzee until the cows come home but I'll start worrying more when any other nation on earth can keep a plane in the air or a ship on (or in) the sea at anything other than our sufference.

 

[Arc-Lite]

Personally, I find these war games to be great. It allows two waco countries to see what it takes to work together, along a very very very dangerious boarder they both share, and allows out KeyHole sats. a very good chance to take photos, of who shaved this morning, and who did not, plus a few other things. Where ever you are in the world, it is good to smile, when you look up. Arc-Lite

 

[WT]

Let's see ....... Russian subs that blow themselves up and Chinese boats that gas their crews. Yeah, like we've got a lot to worry about.

 

[telomerase]

>Their Type 98 tank is a totaly modern MBT with performance aimed at competing head on with our Abrams.

That is interesting. I'm sure China's equipment will improve rapidly now that they actually have an economy.

But the truth is that even a nation with 1940s equipment can still wreck the United States. We spend over $400 billion a year on equipment suitable for fighting nations with no WMDs, but if England, France, or even Israel used their 1970s weapons on us we would cease to be a major economic power.

If the US were more like Switzerland, it would be another matter entirely. But our politicians have chosen to spend a lot on offense and no civil defense at all.

 

[carebear]

They use their WMD's, we use ours. Zero sum, except that, just like conventional weapons, we have more and better ones than anybody else.

Anything less than WMD's? Flat out fact, there is no one else on the planet who can project any amount (much less militarily significant amounts) of military power across the Pacific or Atlantic. Noone else has a forcible entry capability. Noone else can even fly or sail within their own air or sea space if we don't want them to.

It took everything Britain had to project power and maintain it against just part of the Argentinian military. And that was when they were ultimately concerned with resisting a Soviet invasion.

We now know that, during the Eighties, far from being a scenario out of Red Storm Rising or Red Army, the stated Russian perspective of us as the threat to them versus the reverse was actually true.

It would take an alliance of the entire West, our allies, to give us more than a passing conventional military problem. And, again, that would not be on our own shores.

 

[Arc-Lite]

as has been the case, the "wars" of today are not mighty battles of strength, but are small exchanges where there are no front lines... we need to again focus on the small fast exchanges and bring the special forces up to speed, and give them the freedom to do what they do best...

 

[telomerase]

They use their WMD's, we use ours. Zero sum

Yes, so one third-rate power is gone and we are gone. Assuming, of course, that "they" are kind enough to tell us who "they" are. It doesn't have to be a "nation", just somebody whose relatives we killed who can afford a few Kazakh nukes or a small university cell-culture hood.

Ten nukes on ten US cities (or one engineered germ), and between the actual damage and the helpful "security response" from Fatherland Security the US would be a third-rate economic power sitting on lots of rusting 1970s weapons.

I think we should invest in civil defense. It only cost the Swiss 30 bucks a year per capita from 1960 to 1992, and they have a shelter space for everyone.

(And even more important, we should de-invest in our Aid To Dependent Dictators program).

 

[carebear]

My point was more that the threat from non-state actors with WMD's is a prevention problem. Once it pops off it is damage control. We can do everything right 99% of the time and just slip-up once then it is potentially TEOTWAWKI. Although, from what I can, tell the threat of national destruction is overstated. Systems and people have tended to be more resilient than the worst case scenarios have posited.

The original post seemed to express concern that two large formerly active foes are cooperating militarily. My response is, and shall remain for the foreseeable future, "so what?"

We as a country and culture are so used to picturing ourselves as the underdog that we don't recognize, or don't want to show hubris about, how militarily, culturally and economically superior we really are.

 

[ballistic gelatin]

I simply don't like it when those guys get together and talk about how we are the world's dictator. Someone will eventually get the nerve to try remove us from power....of course, that's just my feeling.

 

[GEM]

Well, I searched on Google and found that:

We had joint exercises with Albania, an ex-Chinese ally

We had exercises with India - an enemy of China - where supposedly their Russian built planes punked our F-15s.

The Chinese have exercised with France

I think this is more a sales trip for the Russians. They are supplying the Chinese with lots of arms and this is a demo exhibit. We do that also.

I think the chance of direct joint planning to attack us is not very likely. It would wreck the export market for China, wouldn't it?

Every one likes to posture.

The real risk is a clash over Taiwan. Who here wants to fight China for that?

 

[carebear]

The Chinese cannot force a passage across the Straits into Taiwan. They do not have the sea or air assets to do so in the face of the Taiwanese military backed by our regional Air Force, carrier and sub assets. All they can do is obliterate it.

Aside from maybe some SpecOp raids, it wouldn't take any American boots on the ground.

 

[SLCDave]

Anyone checked Sen. Kerry's schedule during that time period?

 

[nonsense]

hopefully im kidding myself

the more i think about world affairs the more i am somewhat hesitant to pronounce the US almighty world power for all time.

We have a huge, and ever growing public and government debt.

We have a significant trade deficit.

Our primary, secondary and college prepatory (high) schools lag behind those of many, former(because the third world label doesnt really accurately apply anymore), third world nations, especially those in asia.

China Graduates 3 times the engineers and scientists than us

A huge percentage of our college graduate students are foreigners, many of which have no intention of staying to better our great nation.

Its just that i wonder how long our millitary dominance will last. Basically, it seems to me, that we are socially a very soft nation.

 

[carebear]

The facts remain their economy is still state dominated and the vast majority of the population is not educated. Individual effort is not rewarded. Their trade "advantage" is limited to producing goods no longer cost effective to produce in our own or other better developed nations. The reasons for that have some political basis (rampant progressivism/socialism anyone?) which need to be addressed but are not insurmountable.

So they are big industrial countries. The job of "lesser-developed" countries used to be to provide resources to us, the industrialists. Now their job is to provide resources and produce the gross goods we need. Gross production is fairly simple to set up given a certain level of industrial and resource know-how, which we retain.

Our true export (Western Civ. in general, USA in particular) is ideas now, 'stuff' gets produced by those who can't compete on the field of innovation.

Mainland China is not set up to reward or protect innovation, until that changes radically, they will remain a provider, not a creator.

Both China and Russia are hamstrung by their underlying cultures.

 

[River Wraith]

GEM, are you sure about that? I didn't think France had a military?
Let's just hope China and Russia don't piss each other off and decide to nuke each other. I thought China had the world's largest air force, though?

 

[carebear]

It might be the largest in the world now but the day they take on the AF in Japan/Korea and the Navy/Marine Air Team on the carriers and it'll quickly be the second largest over China.

 

[NMshooter]

Russia probably wants to sell them more stuff. And spy on them. And the Chinese say OK, thinking that they will spy on the Russians more than the Russians spy on them.

 

[USP45usp]

America has, and I believe, will retain the strenght that she's always had.

It's not the power of the other countries that will destroy us, it us that will destroy us.

Lets say that china and russia do team up against us, it will be a long and bloody battle but, under the old times, we would win.

With all the crying, the "don't use the nukes even though they did" and the bleeding heart idiots, the government will try to run PC and that will be the death of this great nation.

Just look at the way that these people attack a Marine for killing the enemy because he knew what things that they do and the way they attacked the Army with that prison thing but call the terrorist, insurgents and "freedom fighters".

As Americans we should know that innocents will be killed, that the fight for freedom, your own or for others, will spill blood and you just have to put that into the figure. It's just something that will happen, no matter what. But to those who scream and cry and make the government become PC and tie our Military's hand are the ones that will end this country.

China is growing and they have done what the NEA is trying to do here, brainwash our children. It will be another Vietnam where they will use children to take us out. They don't care for their people, they are to be used for government purposes only and they will die if they don't do as told. The same goes for Russia, they never completely gave up the marxism text.

As in the Bible times and before, nations will go against nations. There is no such thing as "civilized".

Our problem is because we are who we are, humans. It's about insane that we have one group that believes that we should bow down to all others and snivel and crawl, don't raise a hand in your defense or die for the defense of others. Then you have the group that believes some defense is okay but only if we offer PC teddy bears to the enemy, and then you have the hated group that believes in themselves and their countries and believe that anything goes in time of war or defense.

Our problem is the fact that we are allowed to think for ourselves, their greatness is that they can teach mindless drones to do their bidding.

Our greatness is that we have better weapons systems.

Their greatness, they know that many upon many here will yell and scream about our better weapons systems and that they can get laws passed or enough pressure so our PC government won't use them.

I don't know about you but when/if I got into a fight (didn't do that much) I used everything I had and knew to take down the enemy at the time. Depending on the type of fight (gentleman or thug) the weapons used (fist or guns) was determined and used, and you don't wait for permission in order to use those weapons deemed needed.

Wayne

 

[SteelyDan]

This story actually concerns me. China's got the manpower and the money, Russia's got the technology and 20,000 or so nukes. I really don't want to see them teaming up, especially since China is now stating that any Taiwanese declaration of independence will be met with an overwhelming military response, and Putin is starting to feel "cornered" after the election results in the Ukraine.

 

[nonsense]

modern capitalism rewards innovation?!?! social engineering at its best

major scientific innovation is not as rewarded as you might think. Most patents are held by corporations now-a-days. Corporations fund the research, the scientists needs a job and so he does the work while the darkened faces of the cigar smoking board members live it up in tahit. About the only sorts of innovation that are actually rewarded en-mass (im generalizing very broadly here; there are many exceptions) are the bad kind (marketing, smart business (ie outsourcing to china/india) and working cushy deals while you are in the right social circles (corrupt politicians)).

Than there are the dangers of the world economy (not being self-sufficent) when/if war breaks out, or relations degrade. If China can supply the basic needs of their people, and we cant (or are impaired because our corporate masters would perfer to outsource instead of modernizing) we are at a disadvantage.

I want to stress, again, the problem with not educating enough engineers and scientists. Which is very much a direct result of social attitudes embodied in things like modern rap music (also the handheld XM radio elton john commerical and so many other things including just about anything involving donald trump or paris hilton) and the service economy.

I still think we are a force to be reconed with (and will be for some time), and i dont feel like a major conflict is brewing unless something is discovered to neutralize the threat of nuclear and biological weapons. However i feel we are very much a collosus with iron armor and a clay body, partially due to capitalism (think about what would happen to our army if our oil companies decided their intrests lied elsewhere, it almost happened to a limited degree in WWII)