Russian Makarov C&R Question

[giggitygiggity]

Hi, I am interested in buying a Russian Makarov pistol. According to the C&R list, "Makarov, pistol, Russian and East German, caliber 9mm Makarov" is eligible.

However, a number of people seem to think that the Russian IJ70 does not qualify since it was not a military variant.

Can anyone substantiate or refute this claim with something more than your own opinion or people talking on the Internet (ie: documentation/a letter from the ATF)?

I am of the belief that if the pistol is a 9mm Makarov manufactured in Russia or East German, it is C&R eligible, regardless of whether it is a commercial or military version. Nothing requires a gun to be a military variant to be a curio or a relic.

However, because this seems to be a gray area, I would like to err on the side of caution and know for certain. Thanks.

 

[Partizanai]

MAK Fever...

I own a couple of MAK's (including a Russian and an East German).
You no longer see either one available on any of the online sites. If you
like the 9 X 18 MAK round (as I do..) you can readily buy a nice, well made
and very good + condition "Polish P64" from several sites- C & R.
These are very nice and quite well built.
To point- I can not truly answer you question directly though...
P

 

[jrmiddleton425]

The reason the Russian and East German military Makarovs are C&R-eligible, is because they were produced in countries that no longer exist.

 

[Partizanai]

When did Russia cease to exist?

Really? While it's true that there is no longer an East Germany; when did
Russia cease to exist? Did you mean the former Soviet Union by chance?
P

 

[giggitygiggity]

I've already got two P64s as well as a P83 and two CZ-82s. I love the 9x18Makarov too.

 

[rcmodel]

ATF rules.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

That east Germany and the Soviet Union (USSR) no longer exist has nothing to do with anything.

The IT70 does not fit because it is not old enough.
Unless you can find it exempted on the C&R List download in the link I provided.

rc

 

[MedWheeler]

That east Germany and the Soviet Union (USSR) no longer exist has nothing to do with anything.

Which would mean that the Bulgarian and Chinese Makarov pistols are also eligible..

 

[Kaeto]

If they are 50 years old or older, yes.

 

[OldMac]

50 years old is one way and the most comprehensive criteria to make it C&R eligible.
Being specifically listed is another way. The ij70 in 380 or 32 is not eligible. The 9mm mak should be but it is your responsibility to check the list to verify that any listed qualifiers are satisfied

 

[Red Wind]

The CZ-82 9x18 Mak is eligible and is not even 35 years old. There are some exceptions from the 50 year rule.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The CZ-82 9x18 Mak is eligible and is not even 35 years old. There are some exceptions from the 50 year rule.

Yes there are, and if a gun is an exception it will be specifically designated as C&R in the list published by ATF. If the gun is not on the list or more than 50 years old, it is not C&R eligible.

rcmodel linked in post 6 to the definitive ATF information:

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.

To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
   
   
   [*] Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
   
   
   [*] Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) for a formal classification.

The ATF page linked to includes links to the ATF C&R List and updates to that list.

 

[Ed N.]

Hmmmmm..... Frank, that's very interesting. I'd never really thought about this before. It seems to me that criteria 2,

Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest;

has some interesting possibilities, especially since there don't seem to be any age constraints associated with it.

What does it mean to be "certified" by a curator? Is there some process or required proof? If a municipal museum curator certifies a firearm as being a curio that is of museum interest, does that mean those firearms become C&R eligible across the country?

It seems to me, based on just this snippet, that a gun-friendly curator of a small municipal museum in some gun-friendly small town could "certify" as many modern firearms to be C&R eligible as he pleased.

There must be a catch somewhere that I don't know about.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...It seems to me, based on just this snippet, that a gun-friendly curator of a small municipal museum in some gun-friendly small town could "certify" as many modern firearms to be C&R eligible as he pleased....

The ATF would have to agree and add the gun to the list. So if the curator can't support his "certification" to the satisfaction of the ATF, it won't work.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the OP's question, so this matter is closed.

Back to the subject matter of this thread.

 

[Speedo66]

Here's another C&R pistol in 9x18: http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=2092&name=Polish+Radom+P-64+9x18+Pistol

 

[evan price]

Listing a gun on the C&R list by name or by serial number was a way for certain jurisdictions to be able to own guns that they would otherwise be unable to own.

The specific requirements of C&R status- beyond age- would be provenance.

Any old RG revolver will be C&R once it hits 50 years old.

John Hinkley Jr's RG-14 would be a C&R because it is infamous. Note that would NOT be "any" RG14, but specifically the gun used by Hinkley to attempt to assassinate Reagan listed by serial number.

Jack Ruby's Colt Cobra would be another such gun.

Ultimately it would be up to the ATF to interpret if there is sufficient provenance to merit a C&R status.

Sheriff Buford Pusser's Colt Python probably would be C&R.
A derringer he kept in his sock drawer and never used in the line of duty- would it have sufficient historical merit to be C&R?