Recall one of your post about a friends Kimber following & then going full auto.Seems I recall he'd changed out the "mim" parts prior to this happening.I've just had my 3rd "mim" part failure also on a Kimber Series2.Since you have experience with these I'd like to pick your brain.I believe in that post you said you were going to draw up a list of quality parts that you'd found required less fitting than most.I've tried finding the list but haven't had any luck.Could you be kind enough to direct me to it?I've been told the series2 firing pin block parts could be deleted.If so can holes in frame & slide be welded up?The idea of crud in the fire control parts don't flip my trigger.Basically want to do what I can to increase reliability.I'm also intrigued by your thoughts on recoil springs,dwell time & mags.Any advise will be appreciated.Thanks for your time.
?'s for 1911 Tuner
- Thread starter AJB2
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Kimber
Hi AJ, and welcome aboard.
I like Brown Hardcore hammers, Nowlin sears, and Briley disconnects. Briley used to make some very nice, machined disconnects...but they've recently gone to casting them. Be aware that Brown's hardcore hammers come in two flavors...machined barstock, and cast. Nowlin's sears come in either MIM or machined steel. Read the fine print. As for minimal fitting...that has been my experience with the sets that I've used in the guns that I've used them in...
but your experience may differ. Don't count on anything being a drop-in part, regardless of the claim. Too many variations in just the guns for that.
The problem with Ken's pistol was a tolerance stack with the disconnect and sear, and the sear spring. Light fitting/adjustment and a spring swap cured it.
There is a way to bypass the Series 2 firing pin block, but I'm hesitant to post it in a public forum and even more hesitant to recommend the practice on a carry gun. Nothing that I'm aware of needs to be welded in order to make the change, though...I haven't done it myself, since I don't get the opportunity to see many S-2 Kimbers around here, and haven't been inside one yet. Somebody will doubtless PM you with the ins and outs of bypassing the system soon...
Luck!
Hi AJ, and welcome aboard.
I like Brown Hardcore hammers, Nowlin sears, and Briley disconnects. Briley used to make some very nice, machined disconnects...but they've recently gone to casting them. Be aware that Brown's hardcore hammers come in two flavors...machined barstock, and cast. Nowlin's sears come in either MIM or machined steel. Read the fine print. As for minimal fitting...that has been my experience with the sets that I've used in the guns that I've used them in...
but your experience may differ. Don't count on anything being a drop-in part, regardless of the claim. Too many variations in just the guns for that.
The problem with Ken's pistol was a tolerance stack with the disconnect and sear, and the sear spring. Light fitting/adjustment and a spring swap cured it.
There is a way to bypass the Series 2 firing pin block, but I'm hesitant to post it in a public forum and even more hesitant to recommend the practice on a carry gun. Nothing that I'm aware of needs to be welded in order to make the change, though...I haven't done it myself, since I don't get the opportunity to see many S-2 Kimbers around here, and haven't been inside one yet. Somebody will doubtless PM you with the ins and outs of bypassing the system soon...
Luck!
Re: Kimber Series2 Mods
Wish to thank you for the quick reply.Wasn't my intent to put you in a cross w/ my delete ?.Everything I've read or been told on the subject pretty much came under the "quick & dirty" fix category.I was concerned with a more permanent solution.Of course I might be worrying about solving a non-existant problem.I fully understand that all parts must be fitted to my pistol.The series2 is a new thing for me too.There's about an 1/8" take-up on the stock trigger & it doesn't seem well fitted.I plan to stick w/ tool steel parts.Been down the "mim" path,three strikes it's out of here.Cast parts generally take alot more prep to get the surface you want.Bottom line is I'm not willing to bet the farm with it in it's present state.Thanks again for the advise.
Wish to thank you for the quick reply.Wasn't my intent to put you in a cross w/ my delete ?.Everything I've read or been told on the subject pretty much came under the "quick & dirty" fix category.I was concerned with a more permanent solution.Of course I might be worrying about solving a non-existant problem.I fully understand that all parts must be fitted to my pistol.The series2 is a new thing for me too.There's about an 1/8" take-up on the stock trigger & it doesn't seem well fitted.I plan to stick w/ tool steel parts.Been down the "mim" path,three strikes it's out of here.Cast parts generally take alot more prep to get the surface you want.Bottom line is I'm not willing to bet the farm with it in it's present state.Thanks again for the advise.
In the dark recesses of my memory, I recall that the Series II "FP safety" can be neutered just by installing a standard Series 70 firing pin (those are getting hard to find, however). If I recall, the plunger tip "rides" the smooth shaft of the series 70 FP and applies no significant drag in operation. Since it never pushes into the locking slot, the plunger can not block the FP.
That is what I remember being posted way back when Kimber was having so much trouble with light strikes from the series II safety plungers not being fully depressed by the grip safety, YMMV, I could be wrong. If this is not current info, somebody please correct it.
As Tuner pointed out, disarming a safety is always a legal liability, not recommended on carry guns.
That is what I remember being posted way back when Kimber was having so much trouble with light strikes from the series II safety plungers not being fully depressed by the grip safety, YMMV, I could be wrong. If this is not current info, somebody please correct it.
As Tuner pointed out, disarming a safety is always a legal liability, not recommended on carry guns.
bountyhunter is correct. You can override the FP block with a GI or Series 70 firing pin.
If you want to remove the safety entirely, you need to drift off the rear sight and remove the spring and plunger. Then you need to remove the push rod from the sear pin. Check to make sure the sear won't get caught in the little recess milled out in the frame with the push rod gone. If it does, you will need to cut the extension off the push rod and use the lower part of the rod as a spacer on the sear pin. It's a pretty small hole through the frame and I doubt much more dirt would get down there than does already. If you leave the push rod and cut the extension so it doesn't stick up above the frame, you will have a plug. The hole in the slide just goes under the sight. Nothing to get gunked up.
You DO need to consider the potential civil action even in a "good" shooting if you remove the safety. You may not increase your jeopardy in a criminal proceeding if the shooting is justified but the "victim's" civil attorney will certainly get mileage off a gun modified to defeat a safety.
Oh, and you can take up the pretravel in your trigger by bending the little tabs on the front of the Kimber trigger bows out just a hair. You need some pre-travel to make sure the trigger resets but you can adjust it.
If you want to remove the safety entirely, you need to drift off the rear sight and remove the spring and plunger. Then you need to remove the push rod from the sear pin. Check to make sure the sear won't get caught in the little recess milled out in the frame with the push rod gone. If it does, you will need to cut the extension off the push rod and use the lower part of the rod as a spacer on the sear pin. It's a pretty small hole through the frame and I doubt much more dirt would get down there than does already. If you leave the push rod and cut the extension so it doesn't stick up above the frame, you will have a plug. The hole in the slide just goes under the sight. Nothing to get gunked up.
You DO need to consider the potential civil action even in a "good" shooting if you remove the safety. You may not increase your jeopardy in a criminal proceeding if the shooting is justified but the "victim's" civil attorney will certainly get mileage off a gun modified to defeat a safety.
Oh, and you can take up the pretravel in your trigger by bending the little tabs on the front of the Kimber trigger bows out just a hair. You need some pre-travel to make sure the trigger resets but you can adjust it.
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Litigation
AH....Civil litigation. There's the rub. You can be 101% justfied...both legally and morally...and still lose a civil suit. That's when the issue of altered safeties and hair triggers come into the arena. The opposing attorney's job is to get every cent that he can, and he'll use anything at his disposal to do his job. No slam against lawyers, understand. When they're hired to sue, they
do what they were hired to do.
More than that...If you sell or give the gun to somebody, and that person shoots himself or somebody else in the foot...even though the fault is completely his...guess who will probably get dragged into the mess. If your good friend Bob is facing a million-dollar lawsuit, and there's a chance that he can pass the liability on to you rather than have HIS children endure financial hardship...he'll very likely do just that.
If you temporarily alter it, you can return it to original at some point down the road. If it's permanently altered, it could very well be yours forever.
Just something to ponder on. Might be better to just get one that didn't have the lawyer parts to start with.
AH....Civil litigation. There's the rub. You can be 101% justfied...both legally and morally...and still lose a civil suit. That's when the issue of altered safeties and hair triggers come into the arena. The opposing attorney's job is to get every cent that he can, and he'll use anything at his disposal to do his job. No slam against lawyers, understand. When they're hired to sue, they
do what they were hired to do.
More than that...If you sell or give the gun to somebody, and that person shoots himself or somebody else in the foot...even though the fault is completely his...guess who will probably get dragged into the mess. If your good friend Bob is facing a million-dollar lawsuit, and there's a chance that he can pass the liability on to you rather than have HIS children endure financial hardship...he'll very likely do just that.
If you temporarily alter it, you can return it to original at some point down the road. If it's permanently altered, it could very well be yours forever.
Just something to ponder on. Might be better to just get one that didn't have the lawyer parts to start with.
I have a simple solution ...
You can't litigate against a handgun for not having a lock ...
If it never had one in the first place.
It escapes me why some folks buy guns with locks if they don't want them. There are plenty of other options available.
You can't litigate against a handgun for not having a lock ...
If it never had one in the first place.
It escapes me why some folks buy guns with locks if they don't want them. There are plenty of other options available.
Sure you can. The Jennings case where the lawyer for the kid who got shot by his babysitter convinced the jury that the design of the gun was defective because you had to disengage the safety to rack back the slide to unload the gun. Anything can happen in court. It isn't a stretch to see some attorney turn the argument around. I can picture it now....Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, many gun manufacturers are putting locks and blocks on new guns, By not retrofitting his guns, Mr. Fuff knew he had "unsafe" weapons. Knowing this, he purposefully went forth into the night.......
My dad was in LE so he didn't care forlawyers since they were the slimy weasels always trying to twist the truth around and get some scumbag off.
I remember reading about a case where the family was suing the city because they hadn't tried hard enough to revive a dead guy who had wrecked his car and splatterd his brains all over the road. The lawyer kept trying to harp on the question of whether the guy could have still been alive. One set of questions I recall:
Lawyer: "But isn't it possible he was still alive?"
Coroner: "NO."
Lawyer: "How can you be sure?"
Coroner: "Because what was left of his brain was in a jar on my desk."
Lawyer: "But isn't it POSSIBLE he was still alive?"
Coroner: (Thinks for a moment)... "I suppose it's possible he could have been practicing law somewhere."
I remember reading about a case where the family was suing the city because they hadn't tried hard enough to revive a dead guy who had wrecked his car and splatterd his brains all over the road. The lawyer kept trying to harp on the question of whether the guy could have still been alive. One set of questions I recall:
Lawyer: "But isn't it possible he was still alive?"
Coroner: "NO."
Lawyer: "How can you be sure?"
Coroner: "Because what was left of his brain was in a jar on my desk."
Lawyer: "But isn't it POSSIBLE he was still alive?"
Coroner: (Thinks for a moment)... "I suppose it's possible he could have been practicing law somewhere."
Unsafe Gun
Kruzr paraphrased:
I can picture it now....Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, many gun manufacturers are putting locks and blocks on new guns, By not retrofitting his guns, Mr. Fuff knew he had "unsafe" weapons. Knowing this, he purposefully went forth into the night
***************************
To which Mr. Fuff's attorney, the Right Honorable I.B. Slick replies:
"Ladies and gentlemen! It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!
Kruzr paraphrased:
I can picture it now....Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, many gun manufacturers are putting locks and blocks on new guns, By not retrofitting his guns, Mr. Fuff knew he had "unsafe" weapons. Knowing this, he purposefully went forth into the night
***************************
To which Mr. Fuff's attorney, the Right Honorable I.B. Slick replies:
"Ladies and gentlemen! It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!
Chicken Little! The sky is falling!
If anyone has knowledge of a legal citation (world wide)where removing or disabling a safety was a factor in the conviction - civil or criminal- except where a claim was made that it was an accident as "the gun just went off", please submit it here.
We can all come up with "what ifs' and "supposes" to justify almost anything(note the gazillion "zombie and bear attack threads) but hard facts - proof - thats another matter.
If anyone has knowledge of a legal citation (world wide)where removing or disabling a safety was a factor in the conviction - civil or criminal- except where a claim was made that it was an accident as "the gun just went off", please submit it here.
We can all come up with "what ifs' and "supposes" to justify almost anything(note the gazillion "zombie and bear attack threads) but hard facts - proof - thats another matter.
Watch the Sky, Chicken Little
In an age when a clumsy oaf can spill hot coffee in her lap...while driving in a car...without a lid on the coffee...and successfully sue the restaurant for serving her hot coffee...anything can happen.
In an age when a burglar with a long arrest record can break into a home...and get bitten by the family dog...and successfully sue for damages...
anything can happen.
In an age when a man can trespass on private property after scaling a 6-foot
chain-link fence...twist his ankle in a hole...and walk away with 50 grand for
his efforts...anything can happen.
Anything can happen in a society which has, for the last 30-odd years, been indoctrinated with the idea that all guns are bad and that all people who use guns should be penalized for owning a gun...much less actually using one...
anything can happen.
Maybe we can't pull up any documentation of a modified safety device having any bearing on a case...whether legal or civil...but that doesn't mean that it
can't happen, and it doesen't even mean that it hasn't happened. We just haven't heard of it yet...and even if it hasn't happened, precedents are set
nearly every day of the year in a courtroom somewhere.
So let's not waste bandwidth arguing over whether it could or could not happen. Deactivating any safety device on a carry gun is a crapshoot.
I won't do it for you, and I don't know of any reputable gunsmith who will,
even on a range only gun.
When I did the job, if a gun came in that had a defective safety that couldn't be repaired for lack of parts, I notified the owner that it was inadviseable to
load the gun, in writing...and had him sign the paper...and returned to gun in the same condition that it came in. No charge for the assessment, and the answer was a flat NO when it was suggested that he would accept all responsibility for the defective safety if I'd go ahead and repair the gun.
Promises have a way of evaporating when a man faces a million-dollar lawsuit. No thank you!
In an age when a clumsy oaf can spill hot coffee in her lap...while driving in a car...without a lid on the coffee...and successfully sue the restaurant for serving her hot coffee...anything can happen.
In an age when a burglar with a long arrest record can break into a home...and get bitten by the family dog...and successfully sue for damages...
anything can happen.
In an age when a man can trespass on private property after scaling a 6-foot
chain-link fence...twist his ankle in a hole...and walk away with 50 grand for
his efforts...anything can happen.
Anything can happen in a society which has, for the last 30-odd years, been indoctrinated with the idea that all guns are bad and that all people who use guns should be penalized for owning a gun...much less actually using one...
anything can happen.
Maybe we can't pull up any documentation of a modified safety device having any bearing on a case...whether legal or civil...but that doesn't mean that it
can't happen, and it doesen't even mean that it hasn't happened. We just haven't heard of it yet...and even if it hasn't happened, precedents are set
nearly every day of the year in a courtroom somewhere.
So let's not waste bandwidth arguing over whether it could or could not happen. Deactivating any safety device on a carry gun is a crapshoot.
I won't do it for you, and I don't know of any reputable gunsmith who will,
even on a range only gun.
When I did the job, if a gun came in that had a defective safety that couldn't be repaired for lack of parts, I notified the owner that it was inadviseable to
load the gun, in writing...and had him sign the paper...and returned to gun in the same condition that it came in. No charge for the assessment, and the answer was a flat NO when it was suggested that he would accept all responsibility for the defective safety if I'd go ahead and repair the gun.
Promises have a way of evaporating when a man faces a million-dollar lawsuit. No thank you!
I supose that like Tuner says, nothing is a sure thing anymore. This is particularly true in civil cases. But if something happen my lawyer would point out that:
All of the safety features in my handgun that were supposed to be functional were.
That the handgun's manufacturer did not offer an accessory safety for his particular gun. (If that was an issue).
That the gun was one that was, and still is commonly used by the law enforcement community, as it was originally manufactured.
That tens-of-thousands (maybe hundreds-of-thousands) were in circlulation throughout the country, and had been for many years.
That the handgun(s) in question had been used by the US Military Services for many years.
Now that might not get the poor Ol' Fuff off the hot seat, but he is willing to take the risk.
All of the safety features in my handgun that were supposed to be functional were.
That the handgun's manufacturer did not offer an accessory safety for his particular gun. (If that was an issue).
That the gun was one that was, and still is commonly used by the law enforcement community, as it was originally manufactured.
That tens-of-thousands (maybe hundreds-of-thousands) were in circlulation throughout the country, and had been for many years.
That the handgun(s) in question had been used by the US Military Services for many years.
Now that might not get the poor Ol' Fuff off the hot seat, but he is willing to take the risk.
Precedents, et al
The Old Fuff's lawyer might also point out that there is no manual safety
"catch" on the traditional double-action revolver...but modern designs
are about as "safe" as a gun can get...moronic gun-handling notwithstanding.
Then, there's the Glock with its Auto-Safe Trigger Dingus...The safety is always "ON" until the finger hits the trigger...but people manage to shoot themselves and others with those things almost on a weekly basis. (See above comment on gun-handling)
Seems that some fool will always find a way to defeat a "Foolproof" design,
and the only way to insure that a gun is safe is to never load it.
Anyways...We've gone about thirty-three feet south of the topic. Yes...The safety can be disabled. It's just not adviseable. As always...We, as a free-thinking people, lays down our money and we makes our choices.
The Old Fuff's lawyer might also point out that there is no manual safety
"catch" on the traditional double-action revolver...but modern designs
are about as "safe" as a gun can get...moronic gun-handling notwithstanding.
Then, there's the Glock with its Auto-Safe Trigger Dingus...The safety is always "ON" until the finger hits the trigger...but people manage to shoot themselves and others with those things almost on a weekly basis. (See above comment on gun-handling)
Seems that some fool will always find a way to defeat a "Foolproof" design,
and the only way to insure that a gun is safe is to never load it.
Anyways...We've gone about thirty-three feet south of the topic. Yes...The safety can be disabled. It's just not adviseable. As always...We, as a free-thinking people, lays down our money and we makes our choices.
Didn't intend to start all this!
Lord love a duck.Wish I'd of put a sock in it.All I wanted was suggestions about how to make this a dependable weapon.I've had 3 separate incidents were parts have broken.Was worried that series2 parts could also break& make weapon unusable.Those who are old enough to remember the original issue "Mighty Matel" know just how I feel.Never had any problems w/ issue 1911A1's & GI Ball.Came in mighty handy when the black rifle stopped w/ a case stuck in the chamber.The only carrying of this pistol will be from the house to the car to the range & back.Bottom line I have no faith in it as is.Since this thread isn't going anywhere I'm all for deleting it.Thanks.
Lord love a duck.Wish I'd of put a sock in it.All I wanted was suggestions about how to make this a dependable weapon.I've had 3 separate incidents were parts have broken.Was worried that series2 parts could also break& make weapon unusable.Those who are old enough to remember the original issue "Mighty Matel" know just how I feel.Never had any problems w/ issue 1911A1's & GI Ball.Came in mighty handy when the black rifle stopped w/ a case stuck in the chamber.The only carrying of this pistol will be from the house to the car to the range & back.Bottom line I have no faith in it as is.Since this thread isn't going anywhere I'm all for deleting it.Thanks.
But, we're havin' fun! The point is that most juries aren't knowledgable enough to know anything about the mechanics of a firearm or any other machine. An attorney will take advantage of this (it's his job) so you can't be sure what can happen. The key is to try to avoid situations that could end in litigation. Any shooting you are involved with will most likely involve some kind of litigation so make your choices wisely.
AJB2:
I?m sorry if you feel your thread was hijacked, but that's the way things go around here sometimes.
I understand your frustration, but there isn't any easy answer. The "Kimber safety issue" has come up before on past threads, and you can find it (or them) by using the search feature. Our moderator, 1911Tuner, who has forgotten more about these pistols then most of us will ever know, has deemed it to be unadvisable to get into specifics on how to disable the safety features in certain guns. In doing this he is looking out for The High Road, as he should.
I feel exactly the same as you do concerning the lawyer-mandated additions and changes manufacturers are making to John Browning?s original (and well proven) design. I can only make this suggestion, which I will be the first to admit isn't very good.
If you really can't stand the Kimber system, sell or trade off the pistol, and then buy one from another manufacturer that doesn't contain the features that we both dislike. You should end up with a pistol you can trust without any excess baggage in the form of liability - real or not.
You can remove the offensive parts in your Kimber and then replace them with others as necessary, but the resulting arm may not meet your strict (and justified) standards for reliability and dependable service. This whole mess is unfortunate, but it has not come about because of gun-people, but rather anti-gun legislators and activist lawyers over which we have no control.
If you feel that my comments constitute a misuse of your thread I apologize, and will say no more. I hope that you will remain an active member of The High Road.
I?m sorry if you feel your thread was hijacked, but that's the way things go around here sometimes.
I understand your frustration, but there isn't any easy answer. The "Kimber safety issue" has come up before on past threads, and you can find it (or them) by using the search feature. Our moderator, 1911Tuner, who has forgotten more about these pistols then most of us will ever know, has deemed it to be unadvisable to get into specifics on how to disable the safety features in certain guns. In doing this he is looking out for The High Road, as he should.
I feel exactly the same as you do concerning the lawyer-mandated additions and changes manufacturers are making to John Browning?s original (and well proven) design. I can only make this suggestion, which I will be the first to admit isn't very good.
If you really can't stand the Kimber system, sell or trade off the pistol, and then buy one from another manufacturer that doesn't contain the features that we both dislike. You should end up with a pistol you can trust without any excess baggage in the form of liability - real or not.
You can remove the offensive parts in your Kimber and then replace them with others as necessary, but the resulting arm may not meet your strict (and justified) standards for reliability and dependable service. This whole mess is unfortunate, but it has not come about because of gun-people, but rather anti-gun legislators and activist lawyers over which we have no control.
If you feel that my comments constitute a misuse of your thread I apologize, and will say no more. I hope that you will remain an active member of The High Road.
Let me address that question directly: while I never recommend anybody hack off a safety feature, I do know of documented cases where the Series II safety caused a gun to go "click no boom". Hammer would fall normally, gun does not fire due to the FP safety dragging on the FP. There were some guns where part tolerances were such that normal grip pressure would result in flaky operation of the grip safety, but not all cases were where the gun refused to drop the hammer (which the user would obviously notice). A few were where the gun and trigger seemed to work normally, but no fire. IMO, tht is the unforgivable sin of a gun.
The real problem I have with the Series II is I don't know if there is a reliable way to gauge if wear of the parts is getting into the "sorta maybe" region where misfires may start to occur due to grip safety not getti ng a Godzilla crush pressure applied.
I am not picking on Kimber. My Para LDA developed this EXACT problem even though the internals are different. Gradually, I started to get the occasional light strike misfire and the FP shoulder showed tell tale signs of bumping into the series 80 plunger. It was fixed and has never done it since.... but it is a serious enough offense that I would never trust that gun to do anything but put holes in paper.
I would not criticize anybody for not trusting the Series II on a defense gun. I don't trust it either.
Don't let me spoil your fun
I trully enjoy the exchange of info on this forum.Again wish to apoligize if anyone feels that I've placed them in a bad position.Nowadays the legal liabilities of bypassing/deleting safety features aren't worth it.I think I'll just make the Kimber a range queen.I'm glad Bountyhunter spoke up on the Para LDA,finally shot one recently & was impressed.Special thanks to 1911 Tuner,Kruzr,Old Fuff & Bountyhunter.You've all pointed out something that I'd not thought out or considered.
I trully enjoy the exchange of info on this forum.Again wish to apoligize if anyone feels that I've placed them in a bad position.Nowadays the legal liabilities of bypassing/deleting safety features aren't worth it.I think I'll just make the Kimber a range queen.I'm glad Bountyhunter spoke up on the Para LDA,finally shot one recently & was impressed.Special thanks to 1911 Tuner,Kruzr,Old Fuff & Bountyhunter.You've all pointed out something that I'd not thought out or considered.
Series 70 Colt's used the same firing pin that was used in all 1911 and 1911A1 pistols since it's original introduction. However there is a difference between those used in .45's and the ones in .38 Super and 9mm Parabellum's.
They can be found from many sources, but I suggest Brownells at www.brownells.com. Good products and fast service.
They can be found from many sources, but I suggest Brownells at www.brownells.com. Good products and fast service.
Try Numrich, they sell a lot of obsolete parts. Last time I checked Brownell's, none of the FP's they sold were actually series 70 (without the cutout for the blocking plunger). Most FP makers only make the series 80 pins now because a series 80 pin will drop in and work in a series 70 slide, but the series 70 FP's will not work in series 80 slides.
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