S&W 325 PD Failure to Fire

[rg_upton]

I recently purchased a model 325 PD and have only been to the range once with it. It was a pleasure to shoot, but I had an issue -- at least one failure to fire in each cylinder using Blazer (aluminum). Additionally, bullets were noticably pulling from the cases before the complete cylinder was cycled. I attribute this latter to the heavy bullets in the aluminum cases coupled with the moderately brisk recoil from the light weight of the gun. I intend to get out soon with some brass-cased ammo to test as well.

The failures to fire bother me, and I wonder if I should contact S&W to have them take a look at it. Has anyone here had similar experiences?

Thanks,

Russ

 

[35Rem]

May need the extended firing pin available from a "custom" maker. Someone will tell the name, I don't know it. Seems to be a common problem/fix with the Smith 45 ACPs.

 

[Hawk]

I have a 325TR and haven't noted any FTF issues. However, Gun-Tests noted that FTFs were common with the 325NG if .45ACPs were used without the clip. The previous issue 625 would correctly headspace loose rounds.

I haven't tried running without clips but would bet a donut I'd have ignition failures as the 325NG, 325TR and 325PD are all cousins of a sort.

If you're getting ignition failures with clips I'd call S&W and get them to fix it.

A do-it-yourselfer might prefer:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/st...83&title=S&W REVOLVER EXTRA LENGTH FIRING PIN

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Ammo must be moon or 1/2 moon clipped in order to fire in the latest & greatest 625's.
They have WAY excess headspace without them.

Why did S&W decide to fix a design that had worked perfectly without clips since 1917 by drilling the chambers too deep?

You got me?

rc

 

[pinkymingeo]

S&W can usually fix the issue, but I'd get a firing pin from Apex Tactical. It'll let you use reduced power springs with 100% ignition using Federal primers, or stock springs with any primers.
http://www.apextactical.com/hp_zencart/

 

[rg_upton]

Thanks for the insights, everyone. FWIW, I was using clips for each cylinder full and still had the failures to fire.

Also, I got the revolver at a gun show NIB, but of course could not go over it with a fine toothed comb. I am a bit disappointed at the amount of "shake" when the cylinder is supposedly locked, and I noticed while cleaning it after firing that the finish on the underside of the topstrap is now worn through as though the back end of the cylinder has rubbed it off. It does not seem to rub at all when empty and I don't think there is enough slop for it to have happened when firing, but can't figure how the finish is now missing there.

Observation: when the bullets get recoil pulled and fire when nearly protruding from the front of the cylinder, they are almost like squib loads but they did clear the barrel in every case when it happened to me.

Russ

 

[pwrtool45]

Blazer uses CCI primers, which are known to give fits in revolvers that have a modified action (usually by a lightened mainspring).

First, check the strain screw. Make sure it's tightened down all the way. You need a hollow ground screwdriver to adjust it (without buggering).

If that's not the issue, see if there' s a groove running down the middle of the mainspring. If so, the stock unit has been replace by a Wolff. IME, even the "factory power" Wolff mainsprings can cause problems with newer S&Ws that have a frame mounted firing pin. I had similar problems. With my 686-5 and a "factory equivalent" Wolff mainspring I couldn't even light off Winchester primers 100% of the time. It was a Federal-only deal. Returning to the OEM mainspring and a properly tightened strain screw left the revolver 100% reliable with even CCI primers.

If that's not the issue, there's also the possibility that the factory mainspring has been modified. Remove it and look for any grinding or bends. Without tension, it should (more or less) be straight. If there are any signs of modification, replace it.

That just addresses the issue of returning the pistol to 100% reliability. If the strain screw isn't backed out and there's a lightened mainspring in place and you want to keep the light action, then the suggestion to try Randy Lee's (Apex Tactical) extended firing pin is, I think, a good one. I'd suggest heading over to the revolver forum on Brian Enos' site and asking there. Lots of USPSA/IDPA revo shooters there who can authoritatively answer your questions on how to get a lightened action to run and what concessions you make in doing so. Be sure to ask about that C&S extended firing pin before trying it, though. They like it when you bring that up.

 

[pwrtool45]

May need the extended firing pin available from a "custom" maker. Someone will tell the name, I don't know it. Seems to be a common problem/fix with the Smith 45 ACPs.

Yeah, there's two that I know of. The C&S pin and the Apex pin. The Cylinder and Slide pin gets lots of not so nice things said about it by people who know more than me on the issue. Then there's the Apex (Randy Lee) pin, which honestly I didn't even know was out yet. I should think that Lee's pin will work as advertised. Probably try one myself in the 686-5. Still got a "full power" Wolff spring around here somewhere.

 

[Stainz]

The C&S fp is the same size & shape as the OEM - it just has a larger retaining notch, permitting more movement. This notch is where the frame mounted pin, under the top of the sideplate, restricts it's motion. Dry firing is no longer suggested with this pin, as it flattens the fp spring without a primer to stop it's movement. I tried it and won't use it.

The real problem with Wolff 'Power Rib' leafs is the S&W's strain screw. The turned down end - especially if it has been ground - a la a 'tuned action' as in the 625JM and 627 Pro - goes into the back of the Wolff leaf spring's hollow rib now, lessening the spring's pre-load. It makes, even with a full strength Wolff spring, for a soft trigger in DA - but it can be unreliable, even with Fed primers. A piece of .010" brass shim stock, ~ 5/16" square, placed between the strain screw and the Wolff spring's hollow rib helps. Again, tighten all the way - that screw isn't adjustable - it places the proper pre-load on the hammer spring and is a screw only to permit easy dissassembly of the lockwork. A call to S&W will get you a replacement 'full-length' strain screw for the asking. My favorite new 'fix' involves a hardened SS #8-32 x .5" socket-headed set screw (Bagged 2/$.56 at Home Depot!) and some blue loctite. The Allen headed set screw can be tightened to reliability + 1/4 turn - blue Loctited in place - and left alone until the spring needs replacing.

Of course, ftfs with a .45 ACP S&W revolver can have other causes. One of the most overlooked is under the ejector star. Even a single piece of crud, manufacturing or shooting sourced (carbon) can add a bit more wiggle to the 'clipped rounds. A wound single small cotton thread, from a wipe, can be virtually unseen at the rod/star attachment point, yet cause aggravating ftfs. Another is the primer pocket on brass if you reload, but that's another story. And - if the cylinder has excessive 'shake', ie, fore & aft movement, it could have maximum headspace, another limiter.

I am more concerned re the finish rubbed off inside the topstrap - if the cylinder rubs in any fashion, while open, closed, or anywhere in between, send it back to S&W. It could be the yoke - it could be the frame. It could have been demo-ed one too many times at a gunshow - and 'Hollywood' flipped close. Good luck - and keep us apprised.

Stainz

 

[rg_upton]

Again, Thank you everyone.

I took another look late last evening at the protrusion of the firing pin with the trigger fully pulled and also by manually pushing on it. Compared to an old model 10-5, the firing pin seems to only protrude about half as far. I am thinking a new firing pin is in order whether S&W or another.

Since testing by pushing manually on the firing pin and noting the limited movement, I seriously doubt spring tension or other issues are at play in any of this.

Regarding the rub (that is what it is) on the underside of the top strap, it occurs when closing the cylinder. Due to slop (wiggle) of the cylinder on the yoke, it move just enough when pushed up going into battery to rub on the top strap. This is again something maybe S&W needs to fix.

I guess I'll be giving them a call soon.

Russ

 

[krs]

It shouldn't rub there at all.

As it happens I've got one of the C & S firing pins on my bench right now along with the factory pin from my Lew Horton model 27-8.

The C & S pin is .5100" overall with the pin portion at .1975" and the limit slot .1685" on it's base.

The factory pin is a little shorter overall at .4840", it's pin a little longer at .2050", and it's limit slot considerable shorter than the C&S at .1200" again on it's base.

 

[7p62mm]

Want to thank the folks for their posts. I have also had problems with my TR 325. The firing pin system completely failed the first time to the range. I sent it back to S&W and they fixed it but I still get failures to fire with it. I will try the Apex firing pin next.

I have not been able to get very good groups from the gun. I have not shot it enough to know if it is me, the gun, or the FMJ ammo. Would appreciate any ammo suggestions.

Thanks,
7p62mm

 

[Hawk]

I've put Magtech, Fed Red, UMC and WWB through my 325TR. No FTFs yet.

There have been reports that S&B and Fiocchi have been involved in some light strikes in stock revolvers. Nevertheless, I insist on a handgun working with any mainstream factory ammo (which includes S&W and Fiocchi). I've heard the Magtech has equally stubborn primers but that's just hearsay. I haven't come across S&B or Fiocchi .45ACP yet but I'm confident they won't be a problem - it's smacking the Magtechs pretty well.

If you're not totally worn out yet, I'd let S&W fix it (again). The 325TR is marketed as a defensive revolver and FTFs would be unacceptable in that context. It's not like it's a bowling pin gun after all.

 

[charleym3]

Cmon Russ, what happened when you called S&W and told them about the problems? The one time I returned a revolver to S&W I had it back in 6 days and it was perfect.

I have a 325NG that will FTF 1 out of 12 rounds. I thought that it was the RIMZ clips that I was using, but it still happens with my spring steel clips. I've been through the things listed above, but haven't found the solution yet. I'm going to do more comparison with my other S&W 45ACP wheel guns and see what I can figure out. I'll report back.

 

[20nickels]

This may well be a symptom of their new California drop test firing pin which is shorter. Also use quality clips like those from Ranch Products or Hearthco. I also had a problem with the aluminum cased ammo when I first got my 625. Stay away from that crap. Besides ya gotta leave something for us brass whores to scavenge!

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff is amused in noting that back during the First World War, Smith & Wesson could make reliable 1917 model revolvers that worked with or without clips, and they did so without having the advantage of using our modern (and therefore superior) CNC controlled machines.

Headspacing on the clips can be an iffy thing, because clips can vary in thickness and get bowed or bent. Unlike the 1911 pistols firing pin, those in revolvers cannot reach out and touch, as they’re protrusion is a fixed length.

Because of these factors, headspace can be critical, and I have examined several later production model *25’s that had enough out-of-the-factory cylinder end shake to cancel any precise headspacing.

Of course not all of these Smith & Wesson’s are lemons, but enough of them are to make me believe that they shouldn’t be used or carried as defensive weapons until on an individual basis they have proven themselves. They do make great big-boy toys.

 

[twoclones]

Send it to S&W

Let the factory fix it on their dime...
I had failure to fire in my model 327 after hundreds of rounds so sent it back to Smith and Wesson. Got it back in way under 2 weeks with a note saying they had fixed the yoke and replaced the firing pin. Works perfectly now and didn't cost me anything.

 

[Hawk]

Of course not all of these Smith & Wesson’s are lemons, but enough of them are to make me believe that they shouldn’t be used or carried as defensive weapons until on an individual basis they have proven themselves. They do make great big-boy toys.

Heartily concur.

Gun Tests noted the "needs a clip" issue on the Nightguard x25. They also noted that the extractor star was noticeably thinner than the previous version - it's more "wallered out" back there than before. Hence it was a "known issue" when I got my (actually my wife's) 325TR. If I've learned anything, it's not to argue when the spousal unit is picking out a firearm and there just doesn't seem to be anything like the 325TR. Thus far it's performing well but it's getting a complete shakedown with every brand of ammo I can get my mitts on.

 

[20nickels]

Being as old of a cartridge as it is, let's also not forget the wild diffences in .45 ACP ammo itself. Differing extractor grooves being the main culprit, probably followed by case length.
I'm going to take a turn for the positive here. A properly built S&W X25 series gun is one of the most enjoyable and usefull firearms out there IMHO. There are many things that come together right on this one.

 

[Old Fuff]

A properly built S&W X25 series gun is one of the most enjoyable and usefull firearms out there IMHO. There are many things that come together right on this one.

The trouble is that you never know which one that's going to be...

Differing (case) extractor grooves being the main culprit, probably followed by case length.

Along with variable headspace, firing pin protrusion, cylinder end shake and bent or bowed clips. But the question remains, why didn’t we see these issues in the old model 1917?

 

[Anyname]

I'd also check for bent moon clips. They have been known to cause misfires.

Also, someone said that S&W bores the cylinders straight through, that's not the case with my 625, it can be fires without clips.

 

[pinkymingeo]

I have a 625-2,-3,-6,-10 and a 325PD. All fire just fine with or without clips. All have lightened springs. The -6,-10 and PD wear Apex firing pins. All are 100% reliable through thousands of rounds. All were built after 1917, but still (somehow) work. Go figure.

 

[Old Fuff]

All have lightened springs. The -6,-10 and PD wear Apex firing pins. All are 100% reliable through thousands of rounds. All were built after 1917, but still (somehow) work. Go figure.

I am delighted at your good fortune, but perhaps the reason has something to do with aftermarket alterations. In my view dependable revolvers (not to mention pistols) are those that work right when they first come out of the box. Judging from some of the above posts, and my own experience, this sometimes isn't the case.

Uncle Sam never needed to retro-fit his 1917 models (Colt or Smith & Wesson) with Apex firing pins.

 

[20nickels]

^^ Neither did Uncle Sam have to ream his cylinders chambers to the proper size because they were too tight as most 625-8's are. Or deal with the shallow rifling of most model 25's that would keyhole .452 lead boolits. It is unfortunate that we are the final QC testers of S&W's end product, but that is the reality of S&W today.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is unfortunate that we are the final QC testers of S&W's end product, but that is the reality of S&W today.

I agree, but the exchange of information on this thread is helping provide some truth in advertising. My only interest is to make sure that readers know that there can be problems, and what they are. You and I are well aware of what those issues are. Some readers may not be.