S&W AR15T and the "Sport"

[Archangel14]

Okay, I'm looking to build my first AR, but went down to the local gun shop today to check out some of the AR platforms. I compared the S&W AR15 "Sport" model to a S&W AR15T. The latter is Smith's "tactical" model. It has a metal forearm, which if I'm not mistaken, can accommodate various optics and lights and ninja stuff. Other than that it has a FA and a dust cover. Oh, and it also has a price tag that's $350 MORE than the Sport model (the Sport was listed for $650, the 15T for $1,000). Between the two, the Sport model "felt" better.

So, guys, I have to ask....is it really worth and additional $350 for metal forearm that feels quirky, an FA and a dust cover? Am I missing something else that the 15T has that the Sport does not? You know, for the price of a decent build, I'm thinking a S&W Sport may be the way to go. From some reviews I read it can take some pretty hard use. Your thoughts? Thanks....

 

[meanmrmustard]

Sport. FA, DC, and a rail isn't worth the $350, unless you're desert bound or want to add accessories. I've owned two Sports, you cannot go wrong with that rifle.

 

[VA27]

I handled a Sport on the used rack a couple of days ago and I was impressed. I have no use for the F/A, and though I do like the dust cover I could live without it. That additional $350 would be better spent on extra mags and ammo.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

what do you plan to do with the rifle?

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I love my Sport, buy one ASAP. I did put a quad rail on it and a Magpul CTR stock to make it more functional for me. You will not be let down by it.

 

[Archangel14]

NeuseRvrRat: I want a "bad situation" rifle. I've been posting quite a bit lately on the issue of AR's and have gotten quite a bit of solid feed back. I finally decided to just build my first AR. Seeing that I can get a quality lower at a fair price from some local dealers, I thought I'd just invest in an upper kit from Palmetto State Armory. The total cost would be around $850-$900. If I wanted to go with something higher end, like a BCM upper, I'm staring at at least $1,000-$1,100. Money's not really a problem, but I don't like to throw it away needlessly either.

But after handling the S&W Sport, I gotta say that it appeared like a quality piece, regardless of the price. And at $650 it seems like bargain of the day. The ONLY thing that keeps me from grabbing one right now is that I get the feeling that if I found myself in a difficult situation (think post-Katrina here) and needed a solid, reliable performer, the Sport may not be up for some harder duty.

 

[solman]

The sport is a good rifle and makes for a fine entry into the ar platform. I have one and it shoots fine, no failures to feed or eject and I have no problems with it. A "bad situation" is a broad term and only you know what you need in a rifle to meet it. If you want rails, a dust cover and a forward assist and also will hang lots of stuff on the rifle than the sport will not work for you. I have never used the FA on my other AR's. If there is a feed problem I would rather eject a bad round and continue. I have no need for a dust cover but you might. I need to put some good glass on mine as my eyes are not what they used to be. The ebr is a sickness and like most of us you will end up with a few of them.

 

[hardluk1]

Keep in mind about the sport. You can upgrade the couple features you want for not much money if you have a buddy that has the few basic AR tools you will need if any. You can get a replacement metal full featured handguard and do your self with no tools like this metal 2 piece for 60.00 dollars and shipping-http://www.surplusammo.com/kiesler-defense-m4-carbine-two-piece-drop-in-quad-rail-handgaurd/

 

[Archangel14]

I have to say that once I get fixed on something, I really seem to research the heck out of it. I think because I find much enjoyment in it.

I sat back a few months ago and said to myself, "what if....?" I live the the California desert near a major fault line. I've been a few days without power in the 110 degree heat. I've seen, up close, very serious riots. I don't like the state of national affairs. I know, I know, this is not the forum to air such concerns. But I got to thinking, "what rifle do I want to have if things get a little 'silly' ", as my deceased Uncle Sal used to say. I have several nice bolt action rifles. But nothing in a semi-auto configuration.

I decided on an AK platform, but after much thought I concluded that an AR is the way to go. But which one....? I think that ultimately I seek a platform that will serve me well, come hell or high water. I think that's a personal build or a serious AR....Colt, BCM, Sig, maybe a Rock River (I know of the RR doubters, but I know of too many qualified people who swear by them). I love the idea of a S&W Sport model...I want to grab one NOW...but I fear it's not what I'll need should things get, well, "silly".

 

[meanmrmustard]

I have to say that once I get fixed on something, I really seem to research the heck out of it. I think because I find much enjoyment in it.

I sat back a few months ago and said to myself, "what if....?" I live the the California desert near a major fault line. I've been a few days without power in the 110 degree heat. I've seen, up close, very serious riots. I don't like the state of national affairs. I know, I know, this is not the forum to air such concerns. But I got to thinking, "what rifle do I want to have if things get a little 'silly' ", as my deceased Uncle Sal used to say. I have several nice bolt action rifles. But nothing in a semi-auto configuration.

I decided on an AK platform, but after much thought I concluded that an AR is the way to go. But which one....? I think that ultimately I seek a platform that will serve me well, come hell or high water. I think that's a personal build or a serious AR....Colt, BCM, Sig, maybe a Rock River (I know of the RR doubters, but I know of too many qualified people who swear by them). I love the idea of a S&W Sport model...I want to grab one NOW...but I fear it's not what I'll need should things get, well, "silly".

Meh. There's nothing you're going to do to that rifle that wouldn't stop any others in its stable as well. If you are going to sustain rapid fire long enough to cherry the thing, bury it in sand, poop in it, then I don't think things are "silly" as much as plain nuts. "Better to have it and not need it.." mentality is great. But, between the two the OP listed, I'd still go Sport. For $350 less than the T model, you're well on your way to having another Sport halfway paid for.

What exactly is a "serious" AR? How does it compare to a non serious AR, or rather what is it that S&W is NOT doing to make their rifles more serious?

The Sport is damned serious: seriously light, seriously accurate, seriously durable. Sounds serious.

 

[Walkalong]

No, and if you ever want to add one, you can do it cheaper. (Or spend even more if you want to.)

I put a quad rail on a 9MM AR because rails were cool and every one was doing it. If I had it to do over, I would not do it. Nothing against rails though. If you want to hang stuff on an AR they are great.

What exactly is a "serious" AR?

This one is serious enough for me.

 

[arizona98tj]

It seems that the FA and the dust cover grabs a lot of attention but I personally don't see it as that much of an issue.

How about the fact that the Sport comes with a 5R melonite treated barrel? Having read the S&W forums, the Sport shoots as well if not better than the other M&P15 offerings in the stable, IMO.

The Sport was not out when I bought my M&P15....and had it been, I would most likely have opted for it. Were I to purchase another AR, I would get one.

 

[meanmrmustard]

No, and if you ever want to add one, you can do it cheaper. (Or spend even more if you want to.)

I put a quad rail on a 9MM AR because rails were cool and every one was doing it. If I had it to do over, I would not do it. Nothing against rails though. If you want to hang stuff on an AR they are great.


This one is serious enough for me.

Seen one, you've seen em all.

What's a non serious AR look like?

 

[Archangel14]

Yeah, I think I'm starting to get it. I don't want an AR with every little feature attached. I have a good friend that had a gunsmith build him an AR; PSA lower with a BCM upper. Cost him $1,200 bucks. Could have done it himself for under a grand. Within a month he had another $450 in totally unnecessary accessories on it. It's kind of cheesy at this point.

My ONLY concern has been durability. That's why I initially wanted an AK. I have to say, the ONLY thing now driving me away from an AK is the accuracy issue. I've shot some ARs with deadly accuracy out to 200 yards with iron sights. I can't do that with an AK, unless I drop $1,500 for a highly modified Red Jacket-type custom job. I won't pay top dollar for a Russian made infantry rifle. That's why I'm in the realm of the AR. As a DI operated platform, I'm thinking I need every advantage. No matter how much we talk about the reliability and "tried and true" nature of the AR, I can't get my mind away from the fact that it essentially s&#ts where it eats. Thus, an FA and dust cover seem almost necessary for my concerns.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Yeah, I think I'm starting to get it. I don't want an AR with every little feature attached. I have a good friend that had a gunsmith build him an AR; PSA lower with a BCM upper. Cost him $1,200 bucks. Could have done it himself for under a grand. Within a month he had another $450 in totally unnecessary accessories on it. It's kind of cheesy at this point.

My ONLY concern has been durability. That's why I initially wanted an AK. I have to say, the ONLY thing now driving me away from an AK is the accuracy issue. I've shot some ARs with deadly accuracy out to 200 yards with iron sights. I can't do that with an AK, unless I drop $1,500 for a highly modified Red Jacket-type custom job. I won't pay top dollar for a Russian made infantry rifle. That's why I'm in the realm of the AR. As a DI operated platform, I'm thinking I need every advantage. No matter how much we talk about the reliability and "tried and true" nature of the AR, I can't get my mind away from the fact that it essentially s&#ts where it eats. Thus, an FA and dust cover seem almost necessary for my concerns.

Ever heard of Tech sights? Check those out. Feed an AK what it likes, and extend the sight radius. You'll get your battle accuracy at 200 yards.

 

[gpjoe]

Well, here we go again...

You don't have to spend $1000. As I have posted in a couple of other threads, you can get a completely assembled Palmetto State Armory PA-15 for around $700. I paid $720 OTD at a recent gun show. There was a Sport right next to the PA-15, but I opted for the rifle with the forward assist and dust cover. Do I NEED either? Probably not. Am I comfortable knowing that I have the options if I do need them? You bet.

IF (I said, and emphasize IF) you are looking for a rifle that is closer to a MIL-spec rifle, the PSA PA-15 is closer than the Sport, and has a forward assist and dust cover.

Now, I would never claim that the PSA is a "top-tier" rifle, but price-wise it is an apples-to-apples comparison to the Sport, and a better value, IMO. And just to be crystal clear to all of the Sport owners/lovers out there: I am not saying that the Sport is a bad rifle. I just decided to spend MY dollars on something else.

I suppose that in the end, you need to decide what defines a hard-use rifle. Honestly, if my AR were a tool that I used at work, it wouldn't be a PA-15 or a Sport.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Well, here we go again...

You don't have to spend $1000. As I have posted in a couple of other threads, you can get a completely assembled Palmetto State Armory PA-15 for around $700. I paid $720 OTD at a recent gun show. There was a Sport right next to the PA-15, but I opted for the rifle with the forward assist and dust cover. Do I NEED either? Probably not. Am I comfortable knowing that I have the options if I do need them? You bet.

IF (I said, and emphasize IF) you are looking for a rifle that is closer to a MIL-spec rifle, the PSA PA-15 is closer than the Sport, and has a forward assist and dust cover.

Now, I would never claim that the PSA is a "top-tier" rifle, but price-wise it is an apples-to-apples comparison to the Sport, and a better value, IMO. And just to be crystal clear to all of the Sport owners/lovers out there: I am not saying that the Sport is a bad rifle. I just decided to spend MY dollars on something else.

I suppose that in the end, you need to decide what defines a hard-use rifle. Honestly, if my AR were a tool that I used at work, it wouldn't be a PA-15 or a Sport.

PSA are great. But, the build you speak of is still over $100 more than the average Sport. Now, IMO, FA and DC aren't worth ANY extra. Match the Price AND quality of a Sport at the SAME price, then we can do business.

Also, OP wants opinions of what to buy between the T model and Sport. $100 difference? $350 difference? No way, Jose. For $600 these days, with the accuracy, rifling, nitrocarborizing over chrome lining, my money will go to the Sport every time. There are better rifles, obviously. Not in the price range of a Sport, though. It runs like a gun twice its price, groups great, and sits under 7lbs with a red dot loaded. Can't beat it.

 

[hardluk1]

Worried about abuse? I bought mine after reading this review.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ger/-gun-review-smith-and-wesson-mp15-sport/

 

[gpjoe]

PSA are great. But, the build you speak of is still over $100 more than the average Sport. Now, IMO, FA and DC aren't worth ANY extra. Match the Price AND quality of a Sport at the SAME price, then we can do business.

Also, OP wants opinions of what to buy between the T model and Sport. $100 difference? $350 difference? No way, Jose. For $600 these days, with the accuracy, rifling, nitrocarborizing over chrome lining, my money will go to the Sport every time. There are better rifles, obviously. Not in the price range of a Sport, though. It runs like a gun twice its price, groups great, and sits under 7lbs with a red dot loaded. Can't beat it.

Yep, he initially asked if it was worth $350 more, and I agree it is not. However he went on to say:

I want a "bad situation" rifle.

and:

Seeing that I can get a quality lower at a fair price from some local dealers, I thought I'd just invest in an upper kit from Palmetto State Armory. The total cost would be around $850-$900.

and then:

The ONLY thing that keeps me from grabbing one right now is that I get the feeling that if I found myself in a difficult situation (think post-Katrina here) and needed a solid, reliable performer, the Sport may not be up for some harder duty.

So if you re-read my post, I was responding to that set of concerns, not the original post about the 15T.

If he's thinking of building or piecing a rifle together because he has concerns about using the Sport as a "bad situation" rifle, then HE must decide what he is willing to stake his life on. Does that mean a mil-spec rifle?...with a dust cover and FA? Only he can decide that. I am merely pointing out that if he's already considering a PSA lower, and building himself, that he can spend $100 more than the Sport and get a rifle that is pre-assembled, has a FA and dust cover, and is closer to mil-spec, if that better suits his need for a "bad situation" rifle. Again, if I needed a true hard-use rifle that my life depended on, I'd opt out of the PA-15 and the Sport altogether and spend $2K on a LMT or DD. But that's what would make me comfortable.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Yep, he initially asked if it was worth $350 more, and I agree it is not. However he went on to say:



and:



and then:



So if you re-read my post, I was responding to that set of concerns, not the original post about the 15T.

If he's thinking of building or piecing a rifle together because he has concerns about using the Sport as a "bad situation" rifle, then HE must decide what he is willing to stake his life on. Does that mean a mil-spec rifle?...with a dust cover and FA? Only he can decide that. I am merely pointing out that if he's already considering a PSA lower, and building himself, that he can spend $100 more than the Sport and get a rifle that is pre-assembled, has a FA and dust cover, and is closer to mil-spec, if that better suits his need for a "bad situation" rifle. Again, if I needed a true hard-use rifle that my life depended on, I'd opt out of the PA-15 and the Sport altogether and spend $2K on a LMT or DD. But that's what would make me comfortable.

Me...AK variant. Mil spec, to me, means little to nothing. If it makes YOU fight better, groovy.

I reread, see where I missed PSA post. Apologies.

 

[gpjoe]

Mil spec, to me, means little to nothing. If it makes YOU fight better, groovy.

I never said that. I don't plan on fighting anyone with my carbine, so I'm comfortable with my choices. I can't think of any realistic scenario where I couldn't rely on my PA-15 or S&W MOE. I won't be fighting in a desert or jungle anytime soon and in a real SHTF situation I truly don't think my choice of rifle will make a difference. I'm not a doomsday planner or professional. If I were, my choices might be different.

 

[henschman]

PSA are great. But, the build you speak of is still over $100 more than the average Sport. Now, IMO, FA and DC aren't worth ANY extra. Match the Price AND quality of a Sport at the SAME price, then we can do business.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...weight-profile-chrome-lined-mp-rifle-kit.html
That rifle kit is $539.95 with free shipping.

http://www.surplusammo.com/surplus-ammo-arms-ar15-stripped-lower-receiver/
That stripped lower is $80 plus $10 shipping, and I would have to pay another $10 for an FFL transfer fee.

That would get me a mil-spec rifle for $640 (plus the labor of putting together the lower and pinning the upper to it). Some of you may be able to find a cheaper stripped lower. Whether it is worth $40 more and an hour's very informative labor for a mid-length gas system, a lighter profile barrel, and a dust cover is up to the buyer. For the OP's stated role, I would prefer the PSA. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with the Smith either, though. We are fortunate to have two such great deals to quibble over.

I don't think S&W's higher optioned rifles like the AR15T are worth it. The only thing they have over a PSA would be the Melonite 5R 1/8 barrel. I personally don't believe that feature is worth $350 + over a good chrome lined barrel. My PSA is more than accurate enough for my needs.

 

[meanmrmustard]

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...weight-profile-chrome-lined-mp-rifle-kit.html
That rifle kit is $539.95 with free shipping.

http://www.surplusammo.com/surplus-ammo-arms-ar15-stripped-lower-receiver/
That stripped lower is $80 plus $10 shipping, and I would have to pay another $10 for an FFL transfer fee.

That would get me a mil-spec rifle for $640 (plus the labor of putting together the lower and pinning the upper to it). Some of you may be able to find a cheaper stripped lower. Whether it is worth $40 more and an hour's very informative labor for a mid-length gas system, a lighter profile barrel, and a dust cover is up to the buyer. For the OP's stated role, I would prefer the PSA. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with the Smith either, though. We are fortunate to have two such great deals to quibble over.

I don't think S&W's higher optioned rifles like the AR15T are worth it. The only thing they have over a PSA would be the Melonite 5R 1/8 barrel. I personally don't believe that feature is worth $350 + over a good chrome lined barrel. My PSA is more than accurate enough for my needs.

You can keep the chrome lining, and the lighter profile barrel. I don't miss it. I do, however, agree both are great rifles. Glad you're finding deals that cheap, as well.

Gpjoe: no jungle or desert here either. Wasn't implying you'd be engaged in that environment. Your rifles will do fine.

 

[burk]

I do think one of the mistakes with AR's and the "bad situation" rifle position is that we equate Iraq desert warfare with a SHTF situation.

Unless you live in the Mojave, even if a Katrina or LA riots situation arises you are not going to approach anything near the desert combat conditions of the ME and it's effects on reliability. Even then, combat, and defending yourself when SHTF are far different situations (much like the difference in between the needs of civilian carry and LE carry).

There is no doubt in my mind that the Sport will be all the gun you'll need, and you can update it with a quad rail and optics as needed. I suspect in most SHTF situations, the presence of an AR will solve the potential conflict, much like those korean shop keepers sitting at their front doors with AR's in the LA riots. No one bothered their shops.

 

[Archangel14]

burk: I live in conditions similar to the Mojave. I live close to it, in fact. I live in an area where very high winds are common. And when it blows it's not uncommon to have sand storms. I have no doubt that if I'm "outside" for several days that I will likely come across windy, dusty, sandy, sometimes extremely hot (112 degrees yesterday) conditions. That's why I've been hesitant to buy a Sport or a lower-mid tier AR. It's also the reason I originally wanted an AK platform.