S&W Governor - a home defense option?

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ljnowell said:
Thats not the bottom line, you are changing the subject.

Why would I explain anything to do with the patterns? I'm, not advocating this pistol to anyone. I could care less if people buy them, I certainly wont be buying one. I simply think the Box o' Truth is a Box o' Garbage in this case.
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Fair enough. I see your perspective more clearly now. I'll admit that the "compressed in the barrel" notion is indeed a theory and it could stand a bit more research. It would be nice to fire the same loads into the same medium with a short barreled smoothbore (legally of course) and see if the same flattening occurs. So within the context of disputing WHY the flattening is occurring I see your point.

Now from the larger context of this thread, Is the S&W Governor a good HD option?, it really doesn't matter WHY the flattening occurs as much as the fact that it does occur and penetration suffers.
 
quick question.. I'll answer the other questions a few people had a little later, but I'm going to the gun store soon to look at a few guns. Just in case they don't have the governor in stock, can anyone tell me what Smith and Wesson frame size is most similar to the governor, which is a "Z"?

I'd like to get a rough idea of how my hands would fit the grip
 
As far as HD goes, you always use your pistol to fight your way to your long gun.
For CC purposes, fill the thing with .45 Long Colt and let it be.

I would go S&W Governor over a Taurus.
 
It shouldn't be a surprise that the shot flattens out. You've got a column of balls being accelerated in a .450 tube. A regular 410 shotgun has a .410 to .400 tube (depending on choke). Those balls, especially the last one, will tend to squish and fill the cylinder diameter. This is the same technique as "bumping" balls to a larger size in a press.

A flattened ball is what makes lead round balls so effective. I think the federal OOO ones don't flatten nearly as much as the others. Don't know if it is because they are harder, buffered, or both. A harder ball will be less effective terminally unless it hits bone.

I'd like to see someone come out with a OOOO load (.375 dia balls) that are soft. These will have more weight and penetrate better when flattened. There is at least one vendor who sells these, but I haven't heard good things about their performance or quality control. They are a 4 ball load, which seems too heavy to me. Should probably be a 3 ball at .375 to .390 diameter.
 
A K frame will be a little handier, while an L frame should be able to handle more stout .357 shots than you can. :)

If you want a dedicated "house" gun, 4-5" L like the 686 is the way to go. If you might want to carry it concealed, a 3-4" K, like a Model 65, is a good bet.

John
 
Fair enough. I see your perspective more clearly now. I'll admit that the "compressed in the barrel" notion is indeed a theory and it could stand a bit more research. It would be nice to fire the same loads into the same medium with a short barreled smoothbore (legally of course) and see if the same flattening occurs. So within the context of disputing WHY the flattening is occurring I see your point.

Now from the larger context of this thread, Is the S&W Governor a good HD option?, it really doesn't matter WHY the flattening occurs as much as the fact that it does occur and penetration suffers.
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As far as whether or not its a good gun for HD, IMO its not. I mean, its acceptable with the right ammo, like 45acp or 45colt. It will certainly work. A cheap police trade in model 10 38 special would work just as well probably. I believe the 410 chambering is no more than a gimmick designed to attract people that may not understand ballistics very well.
 
Might consider a Model 627, eight shots of .357 mag or .38 spl. Tossing that out there as an alternative. It fits your interest in a flexible gun, given the wide variety of available loads, is powerful enough for home defense, and gives you two more shots, which is never a bad thing.

No opinions on the Governor, other than to reiterate what others have said regarding the value of a .410 as a home defense option, or lack there of, regardless of what's firing it. If the thing shoots the various .45s accurately, and you like it, then go for it. Just save the .410s for snakes and rats (and not the two-legged type).
 
A broken beer bottle is also an option. Maybe not a good option, but still........

I don't care for the 45/410 concept due to poor velocities with 410 and poor accuracy with 45 due to the short rifling, but it is better than nothing.
 
I don't care for the 45/410 concept due to poor velocities with 410 and poor accuracy with 45 due to the short rifling, but it is better than nothing.
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Excepting that this opinion completely ignores the fact that my Governor is proven to be no less accurate than my 625 or my 25. In theory, it shouldn't be. In practice, however, it is, and all of the prognostication and pontification to the contrary isn't actually changing that fact.

I'm not defending the Governor as much as I'm trying to (repeatedly, it seems) add actual observed results to the discussion.
 
I respect Richard's opinion. If he says his Governor is accurate, that's gospel to me.

That doesn't, however, change the fact that a good used .357 can almost certainly be had for half the price, and that the .357 will be at least as effective as even a SAA (standard pressure)- strength .45 Colt load, and more likely, more effective for defense. Further, much more development in the last 50 years has been put into .357 defensive caliber projectiles than in ones that fit onto a .45 Colt!

John
 
What size groups are you getting at what specific range with each gun?
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3" or less offhand slow fire at 15 yards using 230gr RN bullets over a mess of Unique (occasionally getting 2" groups but generally 2.5" to 3"). It's my standard plinking load that shares bullets with my 45ACP hardball loads.

That doesn't, however, change the fact that a good used .357 can almost certainly be had for half the price, and that the .357 will be at least as effective as even a SAA (standard pressure)- strength .45 Colt load, and more likely, more effective for defense. Further, much more development in the last 50 years has been put into .357 defensive caliber projectiles than in ones that fit onto a .45 Colt!
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No quarrel that there are less expensive options, both for buying and feeding. But I'm pretty comfortable that a Gold Dot in .452 has about as much development as any .357 bullet and that a Hornady CritDef 185gr load is going to prove equal to any other chambering.

I didn't buy mine for HD, and I doubt that it'd be my first choice for a dedicated HD gun. But for a utility gun that can do trail, farm, and HD duties equally it's pretty hard to top a 45 Colt/45ACP/410 revolver...
 
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I see the .410 option as adding unnecessary size, but ACP and Colt is interesting...
 
Excepting that this opinion completely ignores the fact that my Governor is proven to be no less accurate than my 625 or my 25. In theory, it shouldn't be. In practice, however, it is, and all of the prognostication and pontification to the contrary isn't actually changing that fact.
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Hey that is great if you are getting good accuracy! I've shot a Judge, and Govenor several times, and used to own a Bond Arms 45/410 and was not getting as good of accuracy as I would shooting 45 Colt or acp out of other guns. But perhaps I just wasn't shooting them enough. Glad it worked out beeter for you.

I guess the reality is that at SD distances, it is probably accurate enough to do the job.
 
I see the .410 option as adding unnecessary size, but ACP and Colt is interesting...
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The reality is that I was looking for another 25/625 Mountain Gun when I found the Governor. Given its lower price (and the fact that it was actually available), I rolled the dice and bought it.

Nobody was more surprised than me that it's worked out as well as it has. The extra bulk of the cylinder is noticeable, but the lightweight frame/barrel shroud keep the overall weight down to below that of the 4" N Frame.
 
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Well- tangent- the N Frames with "pencil barrels" just feel wrong to me, anyway. I bought a 4" Model 21 from a friend in another state some years ago.

Beautiful gun...just felt wrong. I sold it without firing it to a friend who would appreciate it. No, I take it back. Partial trade was a 3" Model 65, which feels right. :)

John
 
If you are thinking about shooting 410 out of it, do read up on the subjuct.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm. 45 colt or 45 ACP would be better choices. As far as I'm concerned, S&W released the governor as a "Me too" entry into a niche market created by Taurus. Even giving it an uncharactoristicly S&W name to make it seem more like the Judge. It has its uses, but if you are looking to do some serious business, you might find there are better choices for this purpose. If you just want one then get one. No need to try to justify a legitimate use for it
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I pretty much agree, but just to say, the Judge was out-selling everything on the market with a rotating cylinder, not sure recent sales figures. So, if it's a niche market, it's a huge niche and S&W couldn't really stand aside and let Taurus have a huge market without competition, could it?

I kinda like the light weight UL Judge Personal Defense, wouldn't want one of the heavier versions. I don't really want one at all, tell ya the truth, but if I did get one, it'd be a light, compact model. It'd make a good hiking gun if you have snakes like are in south Texas. A Personal Defense could be belt carried effectively, but then, I prefer my old Taurus 3" 66 .357 magnum for such duties.

I have a .410/.45 colt barrel for my TC Contender. Kinda useless, but it's also kinda fun. :D If I was going to get a big/heavy Governor/Judge, a Raging Judge (.454 Carull) might be kinda cool. But, heck, I wouldn't really use it for anything. Others might, though, in bear country or as a survival weapon. I read somewhere they're coming with a screw on choke that stops the rotation of the shot column. That helps my TC get 20-25 yard patterns effective enough for birds and small game. Without it, the "pattern" doesn't exist beyond a few feet from what I've read and I can believe it.

If .45ACP is important to you, the Governor is the choice.

The OP is talking about home defense. I suppose the .410 buck shot could have merit for those living in thin walled apartments, but out here in the sticks, I'll keep my 20 gauge coach gun and other handgun options. No neighbors anywhere close.
 
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I have two friends who own the Governor and both like them. For me I would prefer a DA 45 but I do not think any are currently made and the Governor is less expensive than the older DA 45. It has a following and the only one I have shot was accurate. S&W is selling them, making money and the share holders are happy.
 
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