S&W Model 19 end shake question?

[slick6]

I was looking to buy a "Minty" looking(Older)S&W model 19. However, although this revolver certainly doesn't appear to have been abused, I measured the barrel/cylinder gap to be .007"(With the cylinder held forward)and a gap of .009"(With the cylinder held rearward). My questions are as follows:

1)Am I correct in thinking that with an end shake of .002", that this revolver is already at the maximum allowable tolerance range and therefore, at the point that end shake will begin to increase at a faster rate? In other words, this gun is somewhat shot "Loose" already?

2)Wouldn't this .002" end shake measurement, indicate that this revolver should probably be sent back to S&W to correct this end shake(Or, at least be very close to this?)?

3)Would this be a revolver that I should avoid buying in view of this amount of end shake(Unless I wanted to plan on fixing this in the near future, either by adding shims or by sending this gun back to S&W for repair?)?

4)This M19, was built in 1975. I wish to get a good one, that hasn't been shot loose! Since this revolver is a nice one(Except for the .002" end shake and with the cylider/barrel gap at least .001" out of the nominal range(.004"-.006")I hate to pass on this gun-but, am I thinking correctly, that it might be wiser to do so(Rather than to buy this gun, this much out of tolerance for end shake and cylinder/barrel gap?))? Please give your opinions(Pro or Con?)?

 

[gringolet]

lots

lots of 19's out there, I'd probably pass if I had any doubts.
Recommend you buy the S&W manual by Kuhnhausen available form Brownell's..an excellent source for tolerances, service, maintenance, of all
S&W revolvers.

 

[Elmer]

Tightening up the end shake in a Smith is a 15 minute job for a decent revolver smith. Find an old PD armorer and they can fix it right up.

I wouldn't let it scare you off. Any K frame shot with .357's is going to get loose in short order. I've had some of mine tightened up many times.

 

[Old Fuff]

If the price is right, and the revolver is otherwise O.K. I would jump at it. End shake is easy to correct. I prefer to use a .002" thick washer, called a "bearing" that is inexpensive and can be purchased from Brownells (www.brownells.com) You disassemble the cylinder assembly, insert the bearing, and reassemble everything. End of end shake.

Another method is to stretch the yoke (the part the cylinder swings out on), but this requires more experience and expensive tooling.

Some end shake isn't unusual in S&W revolvers - they had it when they were shipped from the factory to provide clearance for dirt and fouling. Your cylinder gap is a little excessive for use with jacketed bullets, but fine with lead.

If I were there you would get a chance to buy that gun if you took the time to think twice ...

 

[unspellable]

Endshake

It didn't neccessarily get that end shake from shooting. I've seen worse come out of the box.

It's easy to fix with a shim, and the trend in thought nowdays is that the shim is a better fix than stretching the yoke aside from being much easier.

If you want to get elaborate you can polish the bottom of the cylinder well and the tail of the yoke cylinder to get them nice and smooth, not difficult to do. Polish them to the point where thye gun will take a 0.004 shim which wil lhold up better than a 0.002 shim. (You need 0.0005 to 0.0010 end shake to allow the cylinder to move freely. Put some oil in there.

Once the endshake is fixed it sounds like you will have a 0.009 cylinder gap. A little more than I like but not intolerable. ( 0.005 or 0.006 would be ideal.)

Don't shoot it unitl fixed. You are correct in assuming that endshake aggrevates the speed at which you get more endshake.

 

[slick6]

Well, I like this M19-3-but, it would bother me to have an .009" gap after correcting the .002" end-shake?

I probably would never shoot anything more potent than .38+P's but, up until now, I haven't been doing any shooting(Mostly had been just collecting)but, I certainly wouldn't want this gun to be a lead spitter?

The forcing cone on this 1975 vintage M19-3, still has the look of new metal-and the top strap doesn't show any flame cutting! There isn't any wear showing at the muzzle crown. There is a cylinder turn ring that is pretty light-but, it does show through the bluing into the metal(A little bit)just before the cylinder notches(Approach ramp). In all other respects, this gun looks as close to new as it could be! This is why I was surprised at the .002" end-shake?

Old Fuff: Based upon the above, would you still advise my NOT passing on this M19-3? Please comment again, as I regard you as being an "Expert" and your opinions hold alot of weight, in my opinion? I do want to "Pass" if this gun isn't good enough-but(Otherwise)I'd not want to pass, if I'd be giving up a nice M19-3? Thanks!

Any other comments by anyone else, will also be welcomed(And, will be very helpful to me!)?

 

[unspellable]

M19

They'll come out of the box with more than 0.002 endshake and more than 0.009 cylinder gap.

How much money are we talking here? If the price was right I'd buy it.

 

[slick6]

The price that I can get this M19-3 for is $345! This Gun Dealer is asking $450-but, since he is somewhat of a friend of mine(And, because I had bought several guns from him in the past)he had reduced his price, for me!

 

[HSMITH]

Headspace figures in here too, you need to know what the headspace is before popping a shim in it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Headspace is determined by the ratchet hub, and if it hasn't been fooled with or overly worn (which is unlikely in this case) there shouldn't be a problem.

I just returned from a gun show(??) where the asking price on an average model 10 was $300.00 !!!!!!

slick6:

I am assuming that other then a .002" end-shake problem, this is a cherry gun. It would cost me under $3.00 to fix it. A wide gap (up to .011") won't necessarily spit unless there is a misalignment between the chambers and bore. I suspect you and the original owner have shot it enough to detect a spitting issue if there was one.

As the gent said, "they don't make guns that way no mo ..."

Whenever I buy a questionable gun that needs work I ask myself, "If I have to can, I get back as much as I'm paying for it?" That's someting you'll have to answer yourself, as it depends on the market where you live. My circumstances may be different then yours.

 

[slick6]

Old Fuff:

1)No, I have never shot this M19-3-as I had tenatively made a deal to buy it from a local Gun Shop that I frequent regularly! So, I don't know if this gun is going to spit lead(Or, not?)?

2)This M19-3 is in California and, they are very difficult to find here-and, whenever they are found, they can only be sold via an PPT(Private Party Transfer)otherwise there could be no sale!

3)The flash cylinder to barrel gap, is actually a tight .009" and an .010" feeler gauge, can't be forced into the crevice! When the cylinder is held tightly forward, the gap is a very snug .007"!

4)I have nothing else to go on, regarding this M19-3, except what I have already said about it? I didn't want to misjudge this gun thinking that it had been shot loose(When it possibly had been let out of the S&W factory, set up on the high side of the cylinder/barrel gap and end-shake tolerance range?)? And, the question still is, is it worth taking a chance on buying this M19-3 or should I pass on this gun and hope that I could find another one(With tighter tolerances)? Yikes! :banghead:

 

[JNewell]

Endshake at +/- two thou should not keep you from buying this gun. In fact, if it really is only two thousandths, you should not pop in a .002 shim, because you need at least half a thousandth or so for reliable functioning. (Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as too little endplay.)

A true .002 is barely into the range of needing service although it's nearing the high end of the range. If you're in California, and the gun is in California, and you can get it for $350, and if there's nothing else wrong with it, you should start the paperwork as soon as the dealer opens tomorrow morning.

 

[Old Fuff]

If you correct the end-shake the cylinder will be pushed to its most rearward position. You can judge the probable gap by holding the cylinder backwards while inserting a feeler gage between the barrel and cylinder. From what you say, I would assume a gap of .009" +.0001" That would just barely be within specifications at the time the revolver was made.

Perhaps I should further note that the 19-3 has the much-desired "pinned & recessed" designation that further raises its value if not utility.

For gun owners, California is a sad place to be. I would observe that it is likely the value/price of cherry S&W model 19's is likely to go up, while the availability goes down, as present owners are reluctant to sell. While I am not in a position to be sure, I suspect that you would have no trouble finding a buyer willing to pay the price you paid if it turned out you were disappointed. The dealer was asking $450.00 and I presume that in California this is not unreasonable.

I don't know about you, but over the years the model 19 has been one of my favorite handguns. It is unlikely that S&W will make any more. The market therefore belongs to the seller, not the buyer, and this is even truer in California. .002" end-shake is not in itself excessive, although the condition should be corrected because doing so is neither difficult nor expensive.

You can wait for a more perfect gun, but if or when you find it, it will likely cost much more then the $345.00 now on the table.

Edited to add: If it turned out that you bought this revolver and liked it particularly well you could send it back to S&W and have the barrel set back to correct the gap. A little expensive, but fine guns are worth it.

 

[slick6]

Old Fuff:

Thanks, for giving me alot of good information to take strongly into consideration, in my attempt in making the right decision to buy(Or, not to buy?)the M19-3 in question!

Could I shoot this gun for a little while(Using only .38's)before needing to send this gun back to S&W to set the barrel back(And, to wait until the end shake is just slightly more than .002", before I put a shim in it to correct(Or, unless I let S&W fix this?))? Actually, .38's or .38+P's is all that I would mostly, ever intend to shoot in this revolver!

EVERYONE ELSE:

Thanks also for the input given so far! If you can think of anything else to add-please post it here-as this is not only very helpful, but, I'm learning a great deal?

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Could I shoot this gun for a little while(Using only .38's)before needing to send this gun back to S&W to set the barrel back(And, to wait until the end shake is just slightly more than .002", before I put a shim in it to correct(Or, unless I let S&W fix this?))? <<

Sure. The S&W model 19 is not a delicate piece of machinery. If it was it wouldn't have gained the reputation and wide use that it did. You may in fact keep it for a lifetime and never send it anywhere. The Old Fuff is an addicted perfectionist, and once he obtains something new (to him) the pieces and parts are soon spread on the workbench to be sure everything is exactly right. Consequently he wouldn?t be happy until the end-shake (as well as anything else that needed attention) had been fixed, and the barrel set back one turn to correct the gap. This however, does not mean that everyone has to be so fussy.

I watch as the superb revolvers of my youth are slowly giving way to polymer hi-cap's with terrible trigger pulls and sintered metal parts, and frankly, I have no intention of going quietly into the night ...

 

[slick6]

Old Fuff:

1)Thanks, your last comments were very helpful to me! Except for the idea that the end shake needs to be fixed, to make this M19-3 near perfect, I feel much better now, regarding purchasing this revolver!

2)I think like you do, as I'm also a "Perfectionist"! However, since I have never been involved with shooting my guns(As it is a bit far away from me to get to the nearest shooting range)and, because I have(Up until now)mostly, only had been interested in collecting Mint(Or, near mint)revolvers, and, I have not yet acquired enough(On-hand)technical experience with fixing problems(Such as end-shake))! Although I have been reading alot of technical gun information, just to gain some insight about the mechanical differences between the various(Different Brands)of revolvers and, what might need to be done, to fix certain problems(And, about general gun maintenance)! And(Of course!)the great information provided from this(And other!)Gun Forums!

3)I was also concerned about needing to send a near mint(Blued)M19-3 revolver back to S&W for any kind of work to be done(Because I was worried that the gun might come back scratched up(Or, otherwise, visibly in worse condition, than whenever I had sent the gun out to them to be repaired!))? I would not be happy to find the original bluing damaged or scratched up, upon it being returned to me? However, I must admit, that I have never before, experienced having any service repair work performed by the S&W Company(So, I didn't know what to expect, in terms of the quality of their service?)?

4)This will be the first M19 that I have ever owned! I wanted it to be a good one! Although I would always have prefered to have found a NIB specimen, I knew that(Especially here in California!)that I might not even get an opportunity to find another M19 at all? And, the M19-3 in question, at least, appears to be a LNIB revolver! If I get this M19-3, I'm gonna post some good pictures of it here(As a follow-up!)to see what you fine folks think about it?

 

[unspellable]

Chmber alignment

To check for chamber alignment shine a pen light down the barrel and look for the edge of the chamber mouth. You should not be able to see it. (Assuming the cylinder is locked in place by the bolt.) I can name revolver makes that are more prone to this problem than a S&W.

 

[Old Fuff]

slick6:

The government's answer to any problem is to throw money at it, and to a degree you can do the same. The model 19 is not a rare gun, even in California, but a (only possibly) better gun may also have its own faults because each one is different, and given that they were made in quantity a lot of didn't leave the factory in absolute perfect condition in all respects.

To get a better gun (if you can) you will likely have to spend money like the government does, because whatever you find will probably have something that a perfectionist would demand be fixed.

Like-new model 19's are seldom cheap these days any place you go.

Knowledge is always useful. I suggest you go to www.gunbooks.com and invest in some of Jerry Kuhnhausen's shop manuals. I have literally worn some of mine out and had to buy new ones. They are easy to read and understand, and once you do this you will fully understnd what makes (whatever) gun tick. If you had a shop manual for S&W revolvers you would have been able to answer most of your questions yourself, and a lot more that you wouldn't think of otherwise.

You don't have to worry about returning a gun to S&W. They have the experience and special tooling to work on their own products. Do they ever mess up? Sure. But such is rare and they usually make it right. Nothing in this world is a sure thing, so I wouldn't worry about it. Plus like I said before, you may not send it anywhere. To a degree the issues we've been discussing comprise nit-picking. But then, I am a world chanpion nit-picker.