JTQ
Member
Pardon my S&W model number ignorance, but isn't the Model 58 just an N-Frame in .41 Magnum? Weren't the other caliber N-Frames the same, just with different model numbers, ie Model 22, 25, 27, 28, 29 etc.?
S&W Model 58 Conundrum
- Thread starter TexasBill
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joe_security
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cprher, Your revolvers are out of this world ! Well done Sir !
Lucky Derby
Member
JTQ the M58 is fixed site heavy barrel N frame. No other N frames were made in this configuration. It basically looks like a M10 HB on steroids.
All other N frames at that time had adj sites. The M520 NYSP guns had the fixed sites but had standard tapered barrels, as did all the earlier fixed site N frames like the models 20, 21,22 etc.
The more common M57 is the same gun as the M29, M25 etc, just in .41 mag
All other N frames at that time had adj sites. The M520 NYSP guns had the fixed sites but had standard tapered barrels, as did all the earlier fixed site N frames like the models 20, 21,22 etc.
The more common M57 is the same gun as the M29, M25 etc, just in .41 mag
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TexasBill
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Comment removed as it was the same as Lucky's
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The 520 is a 357 Magnum. The 357 is not a big bore (.40 and above). The 520 order was canceled so they could purchase semi-autos. Point made. Also note that S&W had to custom make these as they had no large frame fixed sight revolver remaining in production at the time. Point made, again.
Yes, M28s (again, not a big bore) and other revolvers were still in use in the 1960s and 1970s (mostly M19s and M66s as, like I said previously, the medium frame revolver quickly displaced the large frame guns after 1956). But their heyday was long gone and the hi-cap semi-auto was the new king. Last year I saw a Chicago cop packing a revolver. Does this mean the revolver is still popular with police? No, it means one very old cop is allowed to keep the gun he carried right out of the academy.
By 1960 the big bore, fixed sight revolver was headed for extinction in law enforcement. I don't think anyone was even making such guns by that time. When the 58 came out in 1964 it was the only gun of its type in production.
Sorry, that be the fact.
Yes, M28s (again, not a big bore) and other revolvers were still in use in the 1960s and 1970s (mostly M19s and M66s as, like I said previously, the medium frame revolver quickly displaced the large frame guns after 1956). But their heyday was long gone and the hi-cap semi-auto was the new king. Last year I saw a Chicago cop packing a revolver. Does this mean the revolver is still popular with police? No, it means one very old cop is allowed to keep the gun he carried right out of the academy.
By 1960 the big bore, fixed sight revolver was headed for extinction in law enforcement. I don't think anyone was even making such guns by that time. When the 58 came out in 1964 it was the only gun of its type in production.
Sorry, that be the fact.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I doubt if they even gave it much thought. If they had, they'd have probably sold a lot more revolvers with fixed sights. I've often though that it would have been a smart move to offer two versions of the same revolver...including the Model 29. I mean...how hard would it be to skip the extra machining step for the adjustable rear sight on an unfinished frame? They did it with the 57/58 models. Why not a "Burger King" approach.
"You say you want a .45 Colt with fixed sights and a tapered barrel? Yes sir! Have it your way!"
Funny. I wondered the same thing, but didn't want to mention it. I think a lot of that stuff comes from gun mag writers who don't remember the 60s. I do...along with the 70s and 80s...and I remember seeing a lot of fixed-sight revolvers in duty rigs.
Lucky Derby
Member
SaxonPig-I was under the impression that the canceled order of the M520's had happened earlier than the transition to semi-autos. What I heard was they ordered the guns to the exact spec they wanted (M520). Smith started production. NYSP then contacted Smith wondering where the guns were and Smith informed them that because it was such a specialty item it would take quite a bit longer. NYSP then said, OK, we'll take M28's instead. They eventually replaced the M28's with M13's to get the fixed sites they wanted. It was at some point after that they transitioned to semi-autos.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yet, they continued to hold on for over 20 years. I'm with Texas Bill. I think Smith & Wesson and others are missing out on a sure thing...but they rarely listen closely to shooters.
LD- The story I always heard was that the NYSP decided at the last minute to go with auto pistols. Never heard about production delays on the 520. I could be wrong but I still think they went with autos.
Sure, revolvers continued to be carried in the 1960s, by older cops. There was no sudden, jarring end to revolver use by cops. It was gradual. But not much in the way of new orders for young cops starting out. Not even possible given the fact that as I noted earlier all the big guns were out of print by the early 1960s which reflects the dramatic decline in popularity. If the guns were selling S&W would not have dropped all of them by 1964.
Sure, revolvers continued to be carried in the 1960s, by older cops. There was no sudden, jarring end to revolver use by cops. It was gradual. But not much in the way of new orders for young cops starting out. Not even possible given the fact that as I noted earlier all the big guns were out of print by the early 1960s which reflects the dramatic decline in popularity. If the guns were selling S&W would not have dropped all of them by 1964.
22-rimfire
Member
Police use of semi-autos rev'd up in the 1980's as I recall. The M57 and M58's are great guns and I don't really care if the police use them today. Love the guns and the caliber today.
Radagast
Member
LD & Saxon Pig:
The SCSW notes Model 28s in the 546xxx serial range marked for the NYSP in the 1977-1980 era, the 520 was manufactured in 1980 with 3000 guns in total, and if I read it correctly 1200 NYSP marked Model 13s and 1200 unmarked model 13s delivered to NYSP, so it looks like LD may be right.
The SCSW notes Model 28s in the 546xxx serial range marked for the NYSP in the 1977-1980 era, the 520 was manufactured in 1980 with 3000 guns in total, and if I read it correctly 1200 NYSP marked Model 13s and 1200 unmarked model 13s delivered to NYSP, so it looks like LD may be right.
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TexasBill
Member
SaxonPig: I think you've got your decades wrong. Revolvers were not only carried by older cops in the 1960s and 1970s, they were issued to and/or purchased by younger cops. A lot of agencies did not even permit the on-duty carry of semi-automatic pistols. I would bet the majority of off-duty guns (if the issue gun wasn't the off-duty gun, as well) were revolvers, as well. I remember an awful lot of 2.5-inch barreled M19s and snubbie S&W J-frames and Colt D-frames. One agency I recall required a special qualification for officers who wanted to carry an automatic off-duty (BUGs were officially taboo and would earn you a two-week, unpaid vacation if discovered). Those were most often variations on the Colt M1911 (Government Model, Commander, Combat Commander) or Browning Hi-Powers with some .380 Walther and Mauser pistols mixed in.
Of the major agencies with which I am familiar, only Dallas PD, Houston PD and Harris County SO allowed the on-duty carry of automatics and that was because the officers and deputies purchased their own sidearms through the department. And even then, the majority carried wheelguns. Austin and San Antonio required, or issued, revolvers well into the 1970s. I know Austin was issuing M27s until the early 1980s.
Of the major agencies with which I am familiar, only Dallas PD, Houston PD and Harris County SO allowed the on-duty carry of automatics and that was because the officers and deputies purchased their own sidearms through the department. And even then, the majority carried wheelguns. Austin and San Antonio required, or issued, revolvers well into the 1970s. I know Austin was issuing M27s until the early 1980s.
Modeel numbers may be great for factory records. However any N-framed S&W revolver can be and has been factory chambered in 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 44-40 WCF, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt with or without adjustable sights. In my m ind they are all N-framed S&W revolvers with different chamberings. In contrast the venerable Colt SAA was always called the SAA while it was available in a multitude of chamberings from 22 LR to 45 Colt.
TB- I said that the large bore, fixed sight revolvers were in serious decline by the 1960s, replaced by medium frame 357s (M19/M66 mainly). In the 1970s autos start to show up and by the 1980s they had taken over. The original topic was the M58 and my point was that guns such as that one were out of favor by the time it was introduced and hence it never caught on. Sales figures prove this. The fact that the 58 had such a short production life proves this.
Lucky Derby
Member
Smith model numbers and SAA Colts are not that different.
SAA could be had as a Sheriff's model or an Artillary model or a Shopkeepers model, none of which indicated caliber, only barrel configuarition. then the Bisley models which indicated a different grip frame. Want adjustable sights? Then you get a New Frontier model.
SAA could be had as a Sheriff's model or an Artillary model or a Shopkeepers model, none of which indicated caliber, only barrel configuarition. then the Bisley models which indicated a different grip frame. Want adjustable sights? Then you get a New Frontier model.
Lucky Derby
Member
I grew up in the 70's and 80's. My father was a police officer in Granger Wa. in '79 or '80 he became Chief of Police in Granger. As a result we knew quite a few, if not most, of the cops in the Yakima Valley at that time. Almost all of them carried a .38 or .357 revolver for duty, usually a K frame. The Toppenish PD was the exception. My step-mother worked for that department as a dispatcher. They carried autos (I think M39's) very early in they 80's, perhaps even the late 70's. I was young, memory is a little fuzzy. In the late 80's my dad, along with most of the cops in the area switched to an auto pistol (Sig P226 9mm)
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